Session 3: Ivo Schot on compounding, manifesting confidence, and not letting money stress kill your art

Ivo Schot (bass, composing for theatre and podcasts, Subterranean Street Society) never advertised himself as a composer, every job came from work he'd already made for the fun of it, which is his core advice: if you want a certain kind of gig, go make that thing yourself first so people can hear you're good at it. He talks candidly about TikTok, his band resisted it for years, then posted unpolished lunch-break footage instead of polished old content and grew from zero to 14,000 followers in six months, which fed real Spotify growth and crowdfunding. On mental health: he says no goal is worth your mental health, know yourself, make sure your money doesn't have to come from your art if that stresses you out, and treat the boring 30 percent of the job (the musical equivalent of doing taxes) as a given rather than a personal failure. He closes with three book recommendations: Your Music and People by Derek Sivers, The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, and How to Write One Song by Jeff Tweedy.

Full transcript

Session 3 - Conversation with Ivo

Rasmus:
Hey, how are you Ivo, how are you doing today?

Ivo:
I'm good, I'm good. It's a very rainy and windy afternoon in Amsterdam.

Rasmus:
Yeah, as usual I guess, but I heard that it's going to be like 20 degrees in the Netherlands soon, at least in some parts.

Ivo:
I heard so too, you have special information on the Netherlands I guess.

Rasmus:
Yeah, not the same thing in Denmark here, it just snowed a little more this way I am, so I still have snow, but I think it's melting, I think it's starting to melt. Yeah, but thank you for coming today.

Ivo:
Yeah, you're welcome.

Rasmus:
Yeah, yeah, it's better, it's definitely better than rain, but it's really nice that you wanted to take the time and I figured that maybe, maybe it will be possible in the future a little bit, I can share like what I know about you is that you've actually done a lot so far in your career, you produce music, you are a musician, a touring musician, you toured across Europe multiple times and you also ran these programs for artists in, yeah, I mean in different countries, I think, I don't know, except there, but from talking to you, it sounds like you've done a lot that could be interesting and inspiring for upcoming artists.

Ivo:
Yeah, I mean, I could do a quick kind of like a summary of the highlights of what I did and how I got there, like briefly, maybe, is that maybe of interest?

Rasmus:
That would be super nice, yeah.

Ivo:
Yeah, all right, well, my name is Ivo Schot, I'm from the Netherlands and I also studied bass guitar and songwriting at a place called the Rock Academy in Holland and then I also studied the same in Germany in Mannheim and yeah, well, as Rasmus said, I did a lot, I mean, in terms of popular music, I just played in a lot of bands, but in the Netherlands as well and also in Germany and also in Belgium, so I've been part of bands in all those three countries and with those bands, I've toured a lot in all those countries and also different countries and other than that, I've always written a lot of music for other projects and especially theatre, so I've been very active only in the Netherlands then for theatre productions where I wrote and sometimes performed with the, as a musician. I also compose a lot of music for like podcasts and radio plays and sometimes even for things for the TV, so a lot of like, yeah, in Dutch we call it like composing for third parties. I own my own recording studio through which I record a lot of artists, but we also do a lot of programs where we support young talent through helping them gain funding, maybe a bit similar as this program, but then more in real life and based on the Netherlands and yeah, Rasmus talked about Russia, I guess.

For a long time between 2012 and 2020, I came to Russia a lot. I had a German band and through the Goethe-Institut, we started performing in Russia and we built up a network there and we ended up setting up a program through which Russian musicians had exchange with people from Ukraine actually as well and Europe and we were on the pathway to turning that into a physical place, maybe a four-year education, maybe a one-year education, we weren't quite sure. We got to the point where we actually had EU funding for it and then of course COVID hit first and we made it like a, how do you call it, also an online program actually where we also use Discord and Zoom a lot and then COVID was over and we had our plan to come back to Russia, but then obviously and sadly the war started and yeah, well by now the project doesn't exist anymore because all the funding got pulled out and while the war is still going, so this is not part of my life anymore, but it was for a very long time and I learned a lot from that.

I would say that would be like the highlights of my career so far and currently, maybe that's nice to say, currently I would say there's three or four things I majorly do. I have my own band called Subterranean Street Society through which I write my own music and we perform that. We're working on a new album right now which will come out in the fall of 2026 and then we'll be touring again.

I have my own recording studio as I told where I record a lot of artists and I compose music and then lastly, I'm currently also part of one of the Dutch unions for musicians where I am actively involved trying to get the wages because they're very bad still at, you know, you have very nice stages, very professional stages and even if you sell them out, you still get paid quite poorly in the Netherlands and I'm working together with other people on changing that a bit.

The band is called Subterranean Street Society. I will type it in there, you'll be able to find it anywhere if you google. All right, well that will be a little bit the highlights as I could say them.

Rasmus:
Nice, no, but that's perfect. Oh yeah, thank you for writing it there Ivo, that's perfect. Yeah, I mean, I see also someone here is asking, you know, how you managed to get those jobs composing and I guess, is there a way for you to, I don't know how you would explain that in the time we have here, but you know, how did you sort of go from, you know, studying music or getting started into landing in some of these first like maybe more important gigs for yourself?

Ivo:
Yeah, it's actually recently I got a WhatsApp from a young musician, it's like 20 years old, who was in my studio recording with his band and I told him what I did and he asked me the same question. He said, can I come by your studio and can you explain me because I would like to get into composing for others too. Yeah, and I was thinking about that, like what would I tell him if he comes over and what I realized is that I wouldn't have a very good satisfying answer because the answer is that I'm not advertising myself anywhere as a composer quite actively.

All the work I've had has come from the work I've done before.

Rasmus:
Okay.

Ivo:
And I would say my only advice that I could say is if you want to do a certain thing go do it, especially if you're young.

So I, you know, wanted to be more, I mean, one thing always led to another. So I wanted to get into theatre because I wanted to make music that was more politically engaging than pop music and especially in 2012. Nowadays, pop music has become again political a lot, which I really like, but back in 2012 this wasn't the case so much and that's why I got into theatre.

And then when I got into theatre, you start already working more conceptually. And then I met some people who saw me compose for a play and they asked me to compose for a podcast. So it's kind of one thing led to another.

But all of the things that I'm getting paid for to do in a way I've done them myself. So I've made for the fun of it, I've made my own radio plays, I've made my own theatre plays, I've made my own albums as a band. And because if somebody's going to offer you a job, they want to know how you do it, that you're good at it.

Rasmus:
Yeah. I think also this is a good point, Ivo, because I've also sometimes talked to young people that are considering if they should go into an education that teaches them something broad or what they should do. And I think a lot of people choose that instead of just doing something because at least that is some kind of path.

And it feels very scary to not have, how do you say, a framework for your future. But actually, the best way is to just do something. And most of the things you can put on your resume.

And that's actually what leads you to often getting the gigs. And you also meet other people when you do something like that.

Ivo:
Exactly. And I would also argue that the younger you are, this is only something you see in retrospect, because when you're young, you notice it less. But I mean, by now, I'm 35 and I have a three year old son and a wife.

And even though I still have a lot of time to do things, the pressure is different. And I need to make money out of it. And especially between 20 and 30, if I look back, I was relatively free.

And of course, I needed to make money, but it was on a different scale, on a different level. So the leverage, like you could argue when you're young, you can feel I have no leverage. I don't know anybody.

But actually, the leverage that you have usually when you're young is a lot of time. And the best thing you can do is invest that time in doing as much of the thing that you want to be paid for and then showcasing it to as many people as possible in as many possible ways. And if you succeed at that, you might end up being paid for it.

If you don't, you can always get a desk job. You know what I mean?

Rasmus:
Yeah.

Ivo:
Like then, yeah, right.

Rasmus:
At least. Yeah. I mean, I when you say this, I'm also I mean, I have the same experience in my life, I'm reminded of when I started producing music myself, I was in this studio that was like a pretty large studio.

But I was I was just getting to meet a lot of people there. And at one point, there was Madonna was playing in Denmark somewhere. And so the producer of Madonna rented the studio because he had to go over some things for the for the general tour production.

And he was and he was there and we were asking him like, you know, OK, so do you got any tricks for us? Like, what, you know, what can you tell us? You know, and like the one thing he just said was like, just work with as many artists as you can.

Then some something will pan out, like someone will become famous and you'll get a shit ton of experience. So that was his best advice was like, just work with as many people as you can.

Ivo:
This is totally true. And I would and again, if you want to get into producing, like to to really get paid to make a record, it's expensive for an artist. So if you're an artist yourself and you have, you know, you need to spend five to ten thousand euros on making a record.

Why would you spend that on anybody who doesn't have any experience if you can spend that? So if you don't have any experience, go to your friend's band and say, I'll record your album for free. Don't do that for the rest of your life, but record your first two, three albums or for a little bit of money, whatever, but record them.

Because then if you do that well, they will tell all their friends that you're great. And also you have something to modify when people go like, hey, can I listen to something you've done? Yeah, I've made this album.

And yeah, I mean, it's very hard to to get somebody to pay for something where there is already a lot of competition because there's a lot of people doing this. If you don't, if you can't show for the experience. I guess.

Rasmus:
Yeah. Yeah. And then no.

Yeah, that will snowball. Exactly. And I think it's the same for artists.

I mean, also when I was still touring. So you probably also can speak about that. But I remember like I remember going on longer tours and playing like small shows and big shows.

But sometimes those small shows where there was no one that showed up was what led to four more shows because, you know, the right person was there or the guy who booked it was like, you guys were still cool even though there was just five people in the audience.

Ivo:
Yeah.

Rasmus:
And we got a lot of experience with those shows also.

Ivo:
No, this is this is this is the same. You never knows in the room is very true. And I've I've I've there's this one band from the Netherlands that recently got very big, like really big.

Rasmus:
Yeah.

Ivo:
They sold out the biggest venue in the Netherlands, which is like, I don't know, like a like like a stadium arena kind of situation. And and they've been around for quite a long time. And the lead singer of the band said that what they always wanted to do whenever they played a show, they wanted to make it seem as if the stage was too small for them.

You know, as if as if somebody would see their show, they would go like they would literally go. They belong on a bigger stage. Yeah.

Rasmus:
So they just played their asses or like they really went all in.

Ivo:
That's what you mean. They went all in. And but they also but also in terms of clothing and in terms of like it was always very, very like, you know, like if you go to a small if you play in a small I mean, it has to fit your band.

It fits them. They're very glam. But I've seen them a lot.

And it's very true. Yeah. If you if you play in a small bar, you could very much be like, oh, it's only a bar.

I'm going to put on my jeans. You know, it doesn't matter. You know, you could you can blend in with the bar, but you can also go to the bar if you're playing a fucking arena and kind of manifest that that energy of this is supposed to be bigger.

And people do tend to take notice on that if you do that well. So so I'd say that, you know, I mean, I don't believe in I believe in manifesting not in the spiritual sense, you know, that you say, like, oh, if you just write it in your novel, it's going to happen to you. But I do believe that that what you put out in the world, if you're confident, people think usually people think you're able just because you're confident.

But some people are just confident and not able. You know what I mean? So.

Rasmus:
Yeah.

Ivo:
So that way you can manifest by constantly showing up and acting as if, you know, you're you're one step ahead of that you really are. And then usually you get to stake that step.

Rasmus:
No, but I mean, I understand what you're saying. It's the same if you're watching if you watch a band play, if you if you watch a young band play and you see on stage that someone is maybe the lead singer is insecure, you know, this thing that sometimes sometimes you'll see someone one of the other band members will make a mistake and lead singer or front person will be like annoyed with it. That right away, like that thing is mostly only noticed by the audience because the band is showing it.

But if they would not show that you and would just be super confident, you would most likely never notice it.

Ivo:
No, totally, totally. This is this. And anyway, if I even if I go to, you know, Paradiso or like a big venue in the Netherlands and I go watch my favorite band, if they make a mistake, I mean, like if they sometimes have, you know, just like a but if they're just, you know, not at all, it's oh, it's I only enjoy seeing that even, you know.

Rasmus:
Yeah, yeah. Feels more real.

Ivo:
You know, you're all people you make, you know, the mistake is not that interesting.

Usually the solving it is usually what is of interest.

Rasmus:
I see here, Rob, Rob is asking, how would you suggest to get your first gigs if you haven't played yet?

Ivo:
It's it's an easy and a hard question to answer because I don't know. First of all, I don't know. I don't know his contacts or what genre band he's playing in.

Does he have a band? What country he is? But so first of all, he's typing.

Let's see what he says. But I would I would say that in order to get a gig, I mean, you could think of it two ways. I mean, I would say that if you want to play no matter what, I think you could always find a place to play, because so you could say you go to your even you can call your aunt and say you have your birthday party next week and I show up with my acoustic guitar and play five songs.

So so if you're at. Oh, he's a rock band in the Netherlands. Well, then I have a more specific answer.

But I would say like I've my dad lived in Brighton a lot, a long time, and they have an open mic scene.

Rasmus:
Yeah.

Ivo:
And I would I've spent five years of my life whenever I was in Brighton. I go to every fucking open mic. I would play.

So and he lives in the Netherlands. There's open mics in Amsterdam. There's open mics in Utrecht as jam sessions.

You can even show up to a jam session in Utrecht and just play one song. So like at entry level, you can even do that. But in the case of Rob, there's a thing in the Netherlands called Pop Ronde.

I mean, I assume he knows about the Pop Ronde. And this is like a bar tour in 40 cities. They select over 150 bands to join.

And and the bars then select the bands they actually want to play. But I've done it with a lot of bands and I've played over over 40 shows, sometimes even with one band.

Rasmus:
It's that that's where you help also you sort of help out. You help out also yourself setting up those shows. How does it work, Pop Ronde?

How is it with the gigs? Like they help you book it or?

Ivo:
No, it's an organization and they and it's every fall in the Netherlands. And Pop Ronde is it it Pop Ronde selects the bands. They select like 100, 120 bands, I think.

And then and then Pop Ronde is is from Thursday to Sunday there for like eight weeks. They're in a different city. So there's Pop Ronde from there's Pop Ronde in every.

And then it means that that day in all the bars in the city, usually like 20 or 25 locations, there's live music and Pop Ronde is kind of like the platform. And then the bars just just from that list of bands pick which bands they want in their bar. And so if you're able to manifest yourself kind of well through that system, in theory, sometimes you play at every, you know, at every city and there's 42 cities in total.

You have to be a Dutch, you have to be a Dutch band, you apply on their website, I'll put it here, Pop Ronde.nl. And I think if I'm not mistaken, I think they usually close around March 1st for next fall. So I think you can still apply for coming a year. I think in Holland, this is the best opportunity as a new band to to get playing.

But it will bring me to my other point is if you want to, you know, get the you know, so if you don't want to play at your aunt's thingy, and you know, if you want to get it a tinge bigger, then of course, having an online presence that at least shows that you're serious, you know, like like that there's a song on Spotify, and that there's a good bio and a good press. I mean, just just find one of those people on Instagram who tell you what you're supposed to do is bad. Just make sure you know, like the basics, because the competition is fierce.

So make sure that what you have in control, your band photo, your your song, your that that's just all of excellent quality, because it will at least show that you're serious about it.

Rasmus:
I think that's a good I think actually, that's a really good point to make out because, I mean, there's so many there's so many people want to play all the same, all the time, same in Denmark. And and when when you're a promoter booking in from a venue, and you have to put on bands, you get so many, you have so many opportunities to pick from. So I think like the lowest hanging fruit that you would that you would where you would sort out something is if you feel like the band isn't taking it too serious themselves, then then you will have a hard time saying why should I take them serious if they're not taking serious and of course, it doesn't have to be.

You don't have to spend thousands of euros on, you know, all kinds of stuff. But you can easily get some pretty decent photos, and at least record a demo, maybe someplace cheap to try it out. And you can always grow from there.

Ivo:
And it is in a way when I'm thinking about it, it's the same advice and how do you get into the composing thing? You know, like the advice is compose something because of the fun of it and showcase it. And here it's the same thing.

How do you get into playing gigs, make the band seem like it's a real thing that's already out there. You know, and that's like bare minimum to to be at entry level. Also, if you want to join Pop Ronde, they will judge it from your online profile.

So if you have nothing to show for, literally nothing, then then then my advice is not go play. My advice is go make something and then go play.

Rasmus:
No, but that is a good point. How did you do you remember how you got started with your first concerts outside the Netherlands?

Ivo:
Outside the Netherlands?

Rasmus:
Yeah. I mean, how did you get abroad?

Ivo:
It's a bit different for me because I I mean, I studied music in the Netherlands and then and then during my studies with Erasmus, I went into Germany and then I was and then I was in a in a German band and then I went back to the Netherlands and I joined a Belgian band all of a sudden because and I and I was from the Netherlands and I lived in Berlin for a while and I lived in Belgium. So I was quite quickly touring in those three countries because I was actually the connecting factor between those bands and those countries. And then my dad moved to the UK for his job and to Brighton, which is a very vibrant as a very vibrant music scene.

So then I I started meeting musicians there and then I got in another band, which I'm still in Subterranean Streets Friday, of which the lead singer is originally Danish. So my starting with touring abroad just had to do with with personal network and the fact that I was like traveling a lot and knew people from different countries. Yeah.

And then we were touring abroad and then for some reason it was easier to get into other countries as well.

Rasmus:
But I think that's a good point, actually, Ivo, because one of the plans with this Talent Across Borders project is also to give people some knowledge on how can they actually, if they're a Danish band, how can they go tour in the Netherlands? Or if you're a Dutch band, how can you go tour in Denmark? And I think you're you're what you're what you're explaining here for getting the network is actually what you can do with a community like that, because I also toured a lot.

I was my band was Danish and we toured a lot in Germany and Netherlands, but we did these shared tours with Dutch bands. So we would we would share the load of booking. And all that took was just for me to get to know someone by going there.

And and here, I mean, we're almost up to 250 people in this year, and I bet there's both Danish bands and Dutch bands. It will be weird if not. So just I would guess like just starting up the conversation and figuring out if you have something in common can be a way to start getting concerts outside of your country.

Ivo:
Well, I mean, well, definitely if you if you as a band are able to play, I don't know, five shows in the Netherlands, let's say you're a Dutch band, you're able to play five shows in Netherlands and you'd like to play in Germany, but nobody knows you there, then the simple answer is why would they book you? But probably there's a German band and somewhere who makes similar music who would love to play five shows in the Netherlands. And if they're able to play five shows in Germany, well, then there is just a simple exchange to be done in theory.

Rasmus:
Yeah, you just go play with each other.

Ivo:
Yeah, yeah. But I must say that nowadays I would add one more notion to it, which I yeah, I my experience is that since covid. Touring abroad has become harder.

OK, and so there are a lot of venues have disappeared, especially smaller venues and bigger venues are taking less risks because there is such an increased activity on social media. I think, you know, like the musicians who got big on on Instagram or TikTok has increased due to covid because it was the only way to get big. And what you see now is that there's a lot of competition out there who can literally go like, look, I have one hundred and fifty thousand followers and I have a thousand listeners on Spotify.

And there's a lot of venues that in Berlin that we used to play that wants like concrete numbers even to book you. And there's two ways to look at it. On the one hand, you could say like, OK, that shit.

So, OK, we're we're fucked. And there's probably for some genres still an underground way. But on the other hand, I must admit that social media is becoming increasingly important and you can really use it to leverage.

You can really gain followers if you if you're willing to play the social media game. And we've for the past year on our last album, we didn't do it. We were very against it.

And this last year, we've been working on it very hard. We grew on TikTok from zero to fourteen thousand followers in like six months. And all of a sudden.

Yeah, well, but we really spend. But I would argue that anybody could do it if the music is good. Yeah.

Rasmus:
If you just grind it, you just kind of follow the algorithm. Yeah.

Ivo:
Yeah. You got to just just post daily, try things, be willing to, you know, interact with it. And the effect of it has been for us that doors that were closed on our last album run, even though on Spotify and on many things, our numbers haven't changed significantly, have now all opened.

Just due to the increased social media numbers. Yeah. And they're not that high.

You know what I mean? Because 14K, I mean, it's I mean, it's it feels a lot to me. But if you look at, you know, like a true influence or something, these are not big numbers.

Rasmus:
Yeah. It's nothing. Yeah.

But that's of course, I mean, the whole thing comes down to that if you're a promoter from a venue, you need to have some you want to you're looking for some sort of security in a return on your investment. Right. So you think and the only thing you can look at then is numbers.

Then you look at numbers. It's like you would do like, OK, how many numbers here and there, which is like you say, also, there's probably genres where they don't do this. But on an overall basis, it's interesting.

But but it makes sense, I guess.

Ivo:
Yeah, well, so the question you can always ask yourself, you know, so there's two sides of the story, because, of course, on a humane philosophical level, there's also a shit part about this, because back in the day, venues cost was lower, venues would take more risk, way cooler, of course, way cooler if you could just call some venues, go and play. But that's not reality anymore. And I think as an as an artist, you like the biggest quality you could have as an artist outside of being good at your craft is to the ability to look at yourself as if you're not yourself.

You know what I mean? Like like what?

Rasmus:
Yeah.

Ivo:
Like it's really critical with yourself. What do I have to offer the other party? Yeah, because if you say music, I'd have to break it to you.

There's there's going to be a lot of good music, you know, that. So so like that's the question you're going to have to keep asking yourself. Yeah.

And try to then perfect that those elements.

Rasmus:
But this is a good point, I think. And I think the only problem that probably is or not problem, but the thing that I think a lot of artists run into is that and I know this has been like this for for a long time, but maybe it's increased now with social media getting more and more. But it is to do all yourself and probably for a lot of people that start out, it can be overwhelming.

But in a sense, I think it's sometimes just about breaking it down to yourself and saying, well, I mean, there's you can do it in increments. Like if you start off by just making sure you have some photos that are nice and you have some songs that sound pretty decent, then you got that sort of covered and then you can look into saying, OK, but if we want to book something, what are the things we need to do? OK, do we need to have something on social media?

And then and then I think putting it into a system for yourself as a band is probably also a good idea. I don't know. Do you guys do that in.

In Europe, when you did this whole thing, we're grinding up the numbers.

Ivo:
Well, more and more, but but the irony with grinding up the numbers is so to give the example of TikTok, we yeah, you know, first we were like, OK, you know, we've been around for eight years and we've got so much, you know, because we've made like a lot of albums and we've made like, you know, video footage that's very professional. So that just looks very good from an artistic point of view. Initially, we were just like, we're just cut all that shit into short form content.

And we're just going to throw it on TikTok, you know, because we have actually all the content already. But that content wasn't doing anything. And then what we ended up doing is we would film ourselves during lunch outside of our rehearsal space.

We just hang out in front of the camera for like 10 minutes. So we would have like a long ass video of us just, you know, we're dudes and we would probably, you know, I would try to kick the lead singer in the nuts and stuff like that. But we were there authentically.

And you would just cut like a 15 second video out of that whole video and it would read a text over it that said something like, if the algorithm, you know, if you're seeing this, you have an excellent taste in music. Where are you listening from? And we put our music on it for 15 seconds.

And those videos went absolutely viral. And we built those, you know, for six months, nothing happened. We put that on and we grew that audience.

But, and initially, I was a bit like, also frustrated about it because it had no artistic value to me. But what happened is those people went to Spotify and our listeners grew with 10k. And we got people signing up to the newsletter.

And now we're doing crowdfunding for the new album. And some of them are crowdfunding for our album. So we're, we're getting, you know, a smaller percentage of these people to be true fans and, and, and people that are listening to our entire catalog.

And, and then I'm all of a sudden, I don't care so much because, you know, okay. You know, people are just scrolling so fast, you know what I mean? And, and if they see you so happy to see you three times, maybe they'll listen to a song and then they liked the song they stay in.

Yeah. It's, it's like, it's, it's like you're doing your own advertisement in a world where everybody's shouting at everybody.

Rasmus:
It's like, it's, but that's a good, it's actually a good point that, that you can be in control of it. It's just about, I think it's, this is about like, so I remember when we toured, when I, myself toured a lot around Europe, what it took for me to do that was to sit down and write a lot of emails. And I didn't particularly like writing the emails, but, but I was able to say like, okay, if I send 200 emails, I'm more likely to get 10 shows than if I sent five.

And so, and so, and, and I remember events that they're like, yeah, but it takes so much time. But so I think this is often the thing is that you, you're an artist, so you just want to do like, you know, the creative part, but you are actually able to, if you do set the grind up, you're able to achieve the things you want. You just sometimes, I mean, need to do something that is not necessarily on the top of your bucket list, but like you say, if you persist them, you can get a lot of followers on TikTok, which will then lead to more fans on Spotify, in real clubs, which leads to even more fans.

So it's like a, you just only have to do is like, you know, shit meant into, into what is the benefit that you're getting out of it? Because, you know, of course, I don't, I doubt that many people like to actually do TikToks, but, but if you're seeing it as a way to strengthen your own opportunities, then, then it's a different aspect.

Ivo:
I see it as the musical equivalent of doing taxes. And, and, and I would, and I would argue that, that, because if you think about it rationally, my, my sentiment in my life as an artist is that 30% of the work that I do time-wise, 30% of my time can go to things that I don't like doing. And they are of result orientated.

They have a purpose. And also I have a company. I need to do my taxes.

If I don't do my taxes, I'll get into trouble. I don't like doing my taxes, but there's no, I cannot.

Rasmus:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ivo:
And, and, and, but if you think about it, imagine any job you are a lawyer or whatever, or you're a doctor, everybody will have a certain percentage of the job that they don't like doing. That is just life.

So I'd say, you know, take that as a given. And, but, but the irony for musicians is that, that in that part of the thing usually lies the biggest leverage also, because there are so many musicians out there who not are not doing it properly. So you will have an edge on musicians that are not doing it properly.

I've seen so many musicians who are the most, I've had them in my school. I've studied that as a conservatory and some people from a young age are very talented. And I've seen some, the most talented ones were usually the ones that got less far than the less talented ones, because the less talented ones earlier on had to want it more.

You know what I mean?

Rasmus:
Because they worked harder.

Ivo:
Yeah. They didn't have to work the less talented or the talented ones because everybody was always in awe of their quality and they would always get the opportunity. But, but, but that edge in the real world, you know, you lose it from the people that are a little bit less good, but that are willing to walk 20 times faster than you are.

So all of my friends from music school who were musically arguably the best have gotten less far than the ones that, that, that, that had to work harder for it.

Rasmus:
It's, it's really, this is a really, this is a really, but this is a really good point. I want to touch on a few things. Yeah.

So I just see that Moose and Soundbath has a few questions. So we'll go over those, Mario and Soundbath, but there is one, one thing that I'm thinking when you say this, because a part of what we're, what we're trying to also talk about in these sessions is this thing with mental stamina or, you know, for you to become more mentally robust, because of course there's been a lot of focus on mental health in the music industry. And it's a hard thing because it is a difficult industry and there is a lot of things that you need to do, do yourself.

And I see also Soundbath's question here is like, okay, but behind, you know, the social media, photos, stats, how far and fast can you possibly go without a team? I mean, just self-managing. And I think this ties into what I want to ask you is that, you know, how, what have you done in all of this when you felt like, yeah, maybe I should ask it differently.

Like, did you feel, did you feel at any point that it was too much? And if so, like, how did you, how did you, how did you try to find out what you should do and shouldn't do, or how did you handle this, like, you know, your mental workload yourself?

Ivo:
It's a good question. I must admit that I find it a difficult one to answer because, you know, people are also very different, you know, people are just wired differently. And the first thing I would say, nothing, not, there's not any goal in life that is worth your mental health.

Rasmus:
Yeah, that's a good point.

Ivo:
I mean, and, and I, and I must admit that if I look at a lot of my musician friends, that I, I do feel that I've been, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky in terms of, of the way my brain is wired. So I feel that I'm relatively well at doing a lot of different things at the same time at, so not to say that it's never difficult, but, but I just have had some friends who are, are just not that equipped for it from, from the type of personalities they have. And, and I don't want to say that, that, that, that, that doesn't mean that then that means you shouldn't be in the music business, but know thyself or something like that, you know, understand what it is that you need.

Some people just need, you know, eight hours of sleep every night, you know, and if, if they have eight hours sleep, they can handle everything, you know? So, yeah. So, and so, but you know, the basics, I would say, you know, because you like eat, like it sounds, but exercise, eat properly, don't drink too much and sleep are, are, are things that are really good for your mental health.

Rasmus:
So that's a good point.

Ivo:
You are, you are at the end of the day, uh, you know, doing something, if you want to hit the top, you know, your, it's like, you can treat it like an Olympic sport almost, I would say, because it, it, it, it asks for a lot of you, um, uh, and that, and the other side of the coin is, is that there, of course, there's so many ways to do it. So I would also say, you know, one of the biggest points of stress at the end of the day is usually money.

And, and, and I would say art and money are not very good friends. Um, so, but money is important in your life in the simple sense that if you don't have any money, you have a problem. Um, I would, the, the other advice I would give to young artists is, is don't fall for the pitfall that your money immediately has to come from your art.

And if you're easily stressed out for money, make sure you earn your money somewhere else, that it's enough that you don't have to think about it. That's then you're 30% of doing shit. And maybe at the beginning, it's, it's a bit more than that.

And then use the time you have left to make your art. You know what I mean? And that's also valid or that's okay.

You know, you don't have to.

Rasmus:
Yeah. Yeah. No, but this, I think this is a really good point.

It's also like, um, it's worth considering if you're an artist starting out that you need to maybe take a step back and look at the, what pressure you're putting on yourself. Because I think some people feel like, Oh, I have to do a thousand things at the same time. And for me to be okay, because otherwise I'm not trying hard enough.

Ivo:
Yeah.

Rasmus:
And I think that, so I read an article recently that I've been thinking would apply a lot in, if you're a musician or an artist trying to come up with, you know, with, with building a career for yourself, as into what you say with that, you know, the money and art doesn't go well hand in hand and it's better to actually get a job. And then sure you save financially and then grow your, your, you know, your, your artistic side. And this, this article was, was telling about like, okay, if you are stuck in a job and you're trying to create another future for yourself, most people never get to it because I was laying out everything when I said, if you just spend one hour every day, you can do this over the course of, I can't remember if you said like six or 12 months or something, then you're able to do it.

And he was like showing how much it accumulates. If you just do like one hour a day. And I think this is, this is something for artists also to consider because right.

They often, you often think like, Oh, I should be doing booking. I should be doing, you know, I should look for, you know, every, everything at the same time. And then you don't do something, anything because it's overwhelming.

But if you just set aside every day, one hour.

Ivo:
Yeah, this is really true. This is really, it really, this you, you're hitting something. I, I read today that people really tend to underestimate compounding results, you know, how things add up exponentially.

And this is an example from a, from a, from, from, it was about Warren Buffet, who was one of the richest guys on earth. He's an investor, like a wall, which is not as artists, we don't think in these terms, but what he wrote is because he's one of the richest investors in the world. And, but he lived through, you know, like 12 depressions and blah, blah, you know?

So it's, it's, it's very remarkable, but he's, and, and what it showed is that, uh, I don't know. And I must say, I'm disgusted by people who own this much money. So, but that put aside, uh, uh, he was worth, uh, like, I don't know, he's worth like 90 billion or something, but 84 billion of that 90 billion he made after he was 65 by compounding results.

So he started investing at 10. So, so, so, um, things like compounding interest is something that really exists. So, so I also notice it now with 35, because I've invested in it for 50 years, things accelerate sometimes way quicker.

Um, uh, and there's, I mean, it, it, it happens on so many levels. I, as a musician, I have a very big pedal board with a lot of pedals, but it's very complex with a lot of amps and a lot of settings. And I get the question from young musicians so many times, how do you build a pedal board like that?

And the answer is it took 15 years of, of buying my first pedal and then thinking like, Oh, that's cool. And maybe then I, and then, and I just kept thinking about, you know, and, but I feel that 50 years ago, I already had a certain idea about sound, but it, it, it's the compounding effect of keeping with it that now there is this whole sound concept, you know, but I could have never just, you know, call the guy and said in one year, I want a board like that. You know what I mean?

Rasmus:
Yeah, but this is a, yeah, no, but a hundred percent, I think that this is a really good point because you can put it on everything. You can put it for writing songs, you know, if you just every, every, every day for an hour, right. Right.

You know, try to write a song, write two songs, maybe a day for every day for an hour. You can divide it up. I mean, yeah, the compounding effect is really, really, uh, it's really, really powerful.

Yeah. And I think, like you say, people underestimate it. And so you end up doing nothing because it's too overwhelming or end up being too, too scattered maybe.

And, and, and not, not know what to focus on. I, I guess it's, that is, that is the hard part. I think maybe that ties into Marius's question here.

That's saying like, and I know, I'm not sure if I understand this correctly, Marius, so, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the question is, should you do or plan several projects, gigs, shows at the same time or instead focus purely on one single project? So I guess the question here is sort of, you know, should you spread your bets on different things? Like, I don't know, different bands or different, like both playing in a band or doing composing or this or that, or should you try to focus all of your attention on one direction?

I think this is, I think this is the question.

Ivo:
I don't have a, I don't, I, I would say that I don't necessarily have a clear answer on that. I think you can do both. You can both, you can do both for success.

I mean, arguably there is a limit on how many things you can do. I mean, I do a lot of things, but I also enjoy, I'm a, I'm like a, like an omnivore, you know, like I like a lot of things, you know, if I would just play in a band, I'd be bored. I also like theater and I like, you know, but only, but, but also I do some of the things outside of the band that are all involved in music also sometimes because they pay better, you know, in theater, you usually get paid better.

So there's also a financial motivation to it. So, uh, yeah, sorry.

Rasmus:
No, sorry.

Ivo:
I want to say I am in one, I am in one band. I am in one band. At some point I did, you know, I did think, you know, in terms of getting a band successful, uh, uh, but it again, then depends on what your role, because I've, I've, I've a very, you know, if I would just be the bass player, I could, you know, my friends who are just drummers with just bass players, they usually play in a lot of bands because or else they can't make a living.

But if you're the lead singer and it's your main project, and you also want to be identified as such, you know, you want to be seen by the outside world as the singer of X and then it helps to, but then you could easily, you know, compose or do other things to make some money or because it's fun.

Rasmus:
Um, yeah, I think it's, I think also, yeah, I think it, I think this ties into a little bit of what you said earlier in that it really depends on what kind of, some people can easily juggle, you know, 10 projects at once. And, and in a sense you get, you know, in a sense, then you get 10 shots at something, but if you're not like, uh, if you're not able to do that or it stresses you out too much, you might, you might not get anywhere. So I really think, yeah, it depends on like trying to be honest with yourself, like what kind of person are you and, uh, and then decide if like, do I, like, am I, am I distressing the fuck out of myself doing all these things?

And is it nicer for me to do one thing? Cause then that that's your answer right there. I think it's really important for an artist, for your own, like, um, yeah, for your mental health to just compare yourself to everyone, not think that, oh, but my friends, Sean, who's doing all these things, you know, I should be doing that too.

Otherwise I'm a failure. It's really much more about looking at, okay, what kind of person am I? And, and, and because that's, what's going to take you to success.

I mean, cause if you try to be someone you're not, you're just going to burn yourself out.

Ivo:
Yeah, totally. And I, and I would say that, that what, of course, as a young musician, I mean, I don't know, there's so many examples of, of, of, of artists. I think Lady Gaga and both Sabrina Carpenter went through many versions of themselves before they were successful.

I do think, especially when you're, I think Sabrina Carpenter made like six albums. You should check. Some of them were like, you know, I think she made like country music at some point.

And, and my, my point is that, that, you know, like, especially if you want to be a big artist, you are in a way you're troubleshooting a version of yourself. Right. And, and some people are, you know, authentically a certain type of singer songwriter and they keep at it.

But I would argue that as an artist, you can, over time, even if you're successful, David Bowie also did it. Every album was a different character. You can reinvent yourself.

So you can be like, okay, I'm trying this version of myself and I'm seeing how people respond to that. And if it doesn't really sit well with people, but you do want to make it in music and you have more versions of yourself to offer, you can also just rebrand yourself and try something else. Uh, you know, and that's also sometimes the quicker way to quote unquote success, because without an audience, you know, it's really nice if there's an audience that's responsive to what you do, it makes a huge difference, makes everything easier.

Rasmus:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this also, this, this thing with reinventing yourself, it's, it also, it's me, at least I've, you need to also, I mean, have fun with what you're doing and, and trying things out and failing at it is, is also just part of the process.

I mean, I certainly learned more from failing then, you know, and I just remember thinking at one point when I started out in my early days, like I remember at one point I was trying to, you know, figure it out. What is the best thing to do? Cause everyone was telling me conflicting things.

And then eventually I just gave up. I remember thinking like, I have no clue what's what the right thing to do is because everyone's saying different things. So I guess I'll just do what feels right.

You know, what my gut feeling tells me to do. And at least, you know, at least then I did that. And if I failed, you know, then I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Cause that just, yeah, I mean, you can spend your whole, you can spend your whole life reading, you know, articles or blogs or watching YouTube shorts about people telling what to do and get nowhere.

Ivo:
Yeah. But, but, but so, but now we come to, I think the best advice that exists and it's cliche, but it's true, but it's called believing in yourself. And I would say in terms of advice, nobody at the end, I mean, you can take advice.

And of course, on a very practical level, if you're like, you know, should I use this amp or that amp? And somebody knows a lot about amps, they can probably give you some advice about them, but about where to go in life. Nobody can really fundamentally give you advice because nobody's you.

So to, so to, to, to quicker you decide that you are responsible for your own path and that you actually know best where your path should go, the quicker you're able to show the world what is unique about you. And what is unique about you is going to be the thing that makes the difference in getting somewhere or not. Definitely.

I mean, and trying to find that is, I think that should be your ultimate goal. Finding and showing what is unique about you. And sometimes it takes a long time.

You know, if you're a guitar player, you're into John Mayer, you'll probably play like John Mayer for five years, but nobody's going to love you for playing like John Mayer. They're going to love you for playing like you. So sometimes you need to get through all these phases before you're, you know, before you're really the you, the most you is you or something like that.

Rasmus:
Yeah. No, but I think this is a great, I think this is a, this is a really perfect advice. It's also, I mean, the timing couldn't be better as we're coming up on, on an hour for this.

I think you, yeah, this, I think this is really good advice, Ivo. And I think, I think it's nice to hear also from you that because you've done so many different things and you've been through all these things and you're still, you're still doing it. So, I mean, that it comes down to that.

All you got to be is really just be authentic and being yourself, I think is, is, is really good.

Ivo:
I also wrote three book recommendations that I think are very, I will briefly say something about them. Three books, I think are great to read. The first one is Derek Sivers, who started CD Baby and he made a book.

He has books that are very thin, that are great. They're all great. But this one, Your Music and People is about a mindset around how you should think when you're marketing your own music.

And that's absolute, I would say a must read for anybody who's trying to make it in music. And the other way, the other two, The Artist's Way by Julie Cameron is like a program that you can follow. It's a book, but you take three months to kind of find your inner voice as an artist.

It's a very valuable one, in my opinion, if you're a younger artist and you're trying to find better structure in how to, you know, like kind of weave being an artist into your daily life. And How to Write One Song by Jeff Tweedy is, is a simpler book, but it's Jeff Tweedy is the lead singer of Wilco. And, and he just kind of explains also about, it's also about weaving a little bit, the concept of being a songwriter into your life.

So he's basically constantly documenting anything that's going on in his life and collecting that. And then taking from that whenever he sits down to write a song. And it's a very interesting way to help you to, you know, in a busy life where you're doing a lot of things to, to kind of also to see like how you can turn that into art, how you can turn your daily life into art, basically.

Rasmus:
This is super nice. I guess we can, I will take these book recommendations and try to see if we can find some links and we can share it in the server and discord server after. Thank you for this.

It was really nice of you to suggest.

Ivo:
Yeah.

Rasmus:
If there's sound, I have not heard about it. I need to check these out myself also now.

Ivo:
The very, the very, the Derek Simmons one is definitely a must read for everybody, I would say.

Rasmus:
Okay. This is really nice. Maybe we can even find like a small snippet of it, you know, can, can scope out somewhere, but Hey, Ivo, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with everybody. It was really cozy and yeah, always a pleasure to chat to you.

Ivo:
Yeah. Yeah. And well to everybody, thank you.

And of course, be sure to check out my band Subterranean Street Society. It's an awesome band.

Rasmus:
Yes.

Ivo:
It's, it's a mix between folk and grunge. So if you're, it's like a mix between Mumford and Sons and Nirvana. So if you're, if you're into good songwriting and loud guitars, you should definitely check us out.

And this is also an example on how to promote your band, because it's my responsibility to make you excited about listening to it. So never say to anybody, Oh, I make a, you know, I, I can't really explain it. Be certain that you know how to explain your own music quickly and briefly, because then people will listen.

Rasmus:
That's true. That's true. So we'll send them to your Spotify or send them to your newly popular TikTok.

Ivo:
I would say that's the great thing about a complicated name of Subterranean Street Society. If you type that on any platform, you'll will be the first you'll find. So just go to Google or to YouTube or to Spotify or to TikTok or to Instagram or to Bandcamp.

Doesn't matter. You'll find us if you type in Subterranean Street Society.

Rasmus:
Nice. That's perfect. Thank you.

And I'll see you around. See you around and chat.

Ivo:
Yeah.

Rasmus:
Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye everybody.

Bye.