Session 8: Wytse Dijkstra on rebuilding a venue in an old prison and the Pop Ronde selection game

Wytse Dijkstra runs The Beatrix, an entirely volunteer-run venue in Leeuwarden housed in a former 17th century prison theatre, which reopened after a multi-year gap once the building's new owner realised nothing else could use a windowless monument. He also works for Noord, connecting Dutch artists to showcase festivals and residencies abroad. As a Pop Ronde selection committee member (1,600 bands apply for around 100 spots), he's candid that your online profile is maybe 60 to 70 percent of a first impression because committee members listen to dozens of artists fast, so lean into being authentically weird rather than trying to guess what the industry wants. His clearest structural point: going international via DIY underground scenes is often easier than breaking into your own national industry, because touring communities work as a two-way exchange of favours rather than a linear ladder. On networking he's blunt: nobody is waiting for you, and being 'persistently annoying' by asking for feedback across many different people, never the same one repeatedly, is genuinely the way in.

Full transcript

Session 8 - Conversation with Wytse
(Speakers corrected. Guest name normalized to "Wytse" throughout. Words kept verbatim.)

Speakers:
- Rasmus Bredvig (host)
- Wytse (guest)
- Eryn (co-host / occasional; name also appears as "Erin" in the raw file)


[Rasmus Bredvig]
Okay, super nice. Do you want to stay on the speakers, Aaron? Maybe if you also have a few good questions for Wytse today.

[Eryn]
Sure, I'll, yeah, no for sure. I'll jump in probably at a later time.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Am I saying it right? Actually, is it Wytse or Wytse? It's Wytse, I feel like.

[Wytse]
Yeah, Wytse.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I'm slaughtering sometimes. Okay, sometimes I really slaughter Dutch names. It's, I don't know, it's hard. I think it's like if you know German then it's like you get the Dutch vibe right 50 percent of the time and the other time it's really wrong. But yeah, really nice Wytse that you had, that you wanted to join today. Yeah, like I heard Aaron said before, you were the one who connected her also to Tab and to me which is, which I'm very thankful for. It's been super nice to have Aaron join us and yeah, nice. There we go. And yeah, you and I are speaking a little bit about some stuff around Spot. You have been doing like a lot of things which I think is really cool and the reason we also wanted to bring you on is that you have multiple perspectives from an artist standpoint and from having like, you know, founded venues but also done regular programming more and you are on the more administrative side is maybe the wrong word to use, you know, but what the work you do with, for instance, Nord and such is a bit more, what is that, organized space, you know, or.

[Wytse]
Yeah, yeah, facilitating and helping out other artists also fooling around.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, do you want to, would you mind like, yeah, giving a bit of an introduction about yourself and like maybe tell a little bit about how you got to where you are now or like a small story around that. I think that would be really interesting.

[Wytse]
Yeah, cool. Yeah, sure. So yeah, I guess first off, thanks for having me. It's super fun. We've spoke about this platform for, I guess, a year now already. So it's super cool to see how everything is developing. So I'm Wytse. I'm from Leeuwarden, a city in the north of the Netherlands. And yeah, like Rasmus already said, I'm a musician. I drum and sing in a band called Velocity Make Good. It's like an electronic live act, a bit of a combination between post-punk and electronica, I guess, which we've been touring across Europe, in the Balkans, in Scandinavia and Spain and Portugal. And I founded a music venue called The Beatrix. And I'm helping out other artists with their first steps abroad. So with Noord, which is a bigger collaboration in the Netherlands between different music talent development organizations and the showcase festival Eurosonic Noorderslag. Yeah, we're organizing showcases across Europe. We do some sort of tour support, organized residencies. Yeah, and all these things all across Europe. So I'm able to, within my work, switch roles and different gaps, which is really building on each other, I guess. You know, when I'm, for instance, touring with my band in the Balkans, we got to know a couple of music festival and venue promoters, which have been able to connect to different artists from my region. And they were also able to tour across the Balkans through that network. So it's really, yeah, building a network and using it in different ways, I guess. And yeah, how it all started. I guess I've got the same origin story as Peter. We started in Podium Astrix in Leeuwarden, which is actually the predecessor of our venue, The Beatrix. It was in an abandoned former prison, 17th century prison in the city center of Leeuwarden. A small music venue with 150 capacity. And I guess the thing with Astrix and now also with The Beatrix, everyone is a volunteer. So not only the people behind the bar or the technicians, but also the promoters. Yeah, basically everyone involved is a volunteer. And I started out in this music venue when I was 14 years old, I guess. I was still too young to be allowed to be behind the bar and tap beer. So I just spread posters to earn my tickets to see bands I didn't know yet. And I basically never left. So from the playground of Astrix, we started festivals with basically the massive group of friends we became. Did a lot of projects like block parties, legal raves back when I was younger, but also festivals. And yeah, and then also we started out with the first international exchange. So yeah, everything started from that small music venue. And then now I'm running it myself.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Did you take initiative to restart it? Because it was closed for a while, right?

[Wytse]
Yeah, it was closed for a while due to reasons. I don't know. Is there a thing called anti-squatting in Denmark?

[Rasmus Bredvig]
No.

[Wytse]
It's very Dutch. It's a very Dutch thing.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
It's pretty nice to explain it, maybe, because it's very foreign for Danish people.

[Wytse]
Okay, cool. So there is a thing called anti-squatting, which basically means there's an organization who is taking care of an abandoned building. And they are renting the spaces in that building, sometimes to live there, sometimes to work there. And this old prison also was this anti-squatting situation. So basically, you can rent a part of a building for really cheap, because there aren't any plans for that building at the moment. Of course, the 17th century old prison in the city center, which is a monument, nobody wants it, because it's a hell of a job to do something with it, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Do you have to restore it? Or do you just have to be very delicate with the changes you make?

[Wytse]
Exactly, yeah. So there's almost no organization who is able to buy that building. So it was this anti-squatting situation for over 10 years. So we've been able to host that music venue for 10 years in that space. But then it got sold. There was an organization who is buying monumental property all across the country. And they're restoring it, but also exploiting it. And that became a massive change for us, because all of a sudden, we needed to pay massive amounts of rent. And with our structure as a voluntary venue, without any form of subsidy, we were just not able to pay that amount of rent. So then the music venue quit. But that was such a massive gap within the city of Leeuwarden and the organizations who were supporting alternative music culture, I guess. We were just the only ones in that sense. So yeah, we just missed it massively. So then a couple of years ago, there was this small starting point for a conversation with the same owner of the building. It took over three years to have a proper starting point. But we're back home. We're in the same place.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Meanwhile, was it used for anything, the venue?

[Wytse]
Yeah, no. There was this small office of a startup company, but nobody joined being there, because there were no windows. And they were also not allowed to make changes, because it's a monument. So yeah, you can't do shit other than hosting a music venue, basically. After a couple of years, I guess the owner of the building also recognized that. Like, okay, yeah, whatever. Let's just host a music venue again, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I think it's also an area like that. It breathes life into it, which in a sense can also become more valuable for them if they own more of the building around it. At least I understand it. It's pretty large, the prison, but the area where you have the venue is just a small part of the whole thing.

[Wytse]
Yeah, absolutely. So next to our music venue, which is situated in the former theater space of the prison. So yeah, it's a beautiful venue. And I think there's no venue like it in the Netherlands, because it's in a prison, and it's in the actual theater hall of the prison. So the stage itself has a wooden, almost like a painting list around it or something.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I saw it also once. I saw it back in the old days, because when I was still playing and we were in Leeuwarden for a few days, playing somewhere else. But then I went to see It It Anita, I remember, back in the day. A beautiful room, really cool and tall, like really high to the ceiling also. That's what I remember. And the stage was super nice.

[Wytse]
Yeah, it's small and cozy, but that's the perfect capacity, I guess, to still be able to fool around and try out. What we notice is audience tend to not necessarily buy a ticket for the space, but really for a specific artist they want to see, especially with rising prices. And because of our whole construction, everyone is a volunteer, everyone is involved. The technician company who lends us the PA system and everything also just does it for almost nothing. And the people who are doing security also give us massive discounts. So everyone is involved, because they recognize the value of running an independent music venue. And because of that, we're able to keep tickets as accessible as possible. So everything is 10 euros, whatever is playing. And the main focus is international touring underground bands. So with this whole combination, our audiences just go there, buy a ticket of 10 euros, whatever is playing. So it's more of a community, and the audience is also part of that community, I guess, instead of just...

[Rasmus Bredvig]
But that is super cool. I remember also, there are... This is the sort of venue I've encountered sometimes in Germany and also in Switzerland, where people just actually show up for every evening, because they're maybe not actually checking out necessarily what the band is. They just know it's always going to be good, and it's never going to be too expensive. That's a really cool culture to be able to build.

[Wytse]
Yeah. And it's also really important for local talent to have this organized staircase, if you will. So you're starting out with talent development stuff, but at some point you need to grow and have time on stage on actual stages. But a massive venue is way too big. So you need to have different stages to just go and play. So what we do is... Headliners are always national or international touring underground, but support acts are always local artists from town. So yeah, every week we have a new local on stage, basically.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
That's really cool. Are you able to also combine the work at Beatrix with what you do for Nord? Is that connected in any way? Or how do you use the value of both these projects, if you will?

[Wytse]
Yeah. So I guess it's not officially connected, but the network I'm able to grow from a promoter perspective also helps out when it comes to helping out local artists from Nord and vice versa. So when I'm organizing bootcamps in England or the Balkans or basically wherever, I'm also exploring new artists from different local scenes. The second part is super nice to be able to invite them over as well. So I guess it's always about building a two-way street and not just claiming what you need for yourself. But I think that's the most valuable part. Like when I'm helping out other artists to other local scenes, it's super nice to be able to have that specific local scene also be able to visit your scene, basically. And then it's about a lasting collaboration, I guess. So I guess that's what I'm trying to accomplish in the different projects.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
With that, I understand that you can actually, if you spot someone that has great talent and that wants to come to Netherlands, you don't have to only send them to other people. You can actually make a bit of a difference directly yourself by saying, well, we have a stage that you would fit on.

[Wytse]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Let me just see here, because I thought, like I said, let me just check. I'm going to check a few questions here that we had before. I think there was a question that fit a little. Yeah, this one I thought would be interesting to throw in now, which is that someone here from before with the forum asked, what was your journey with your band like? How did you start making things happen for yourself in the beginning?

[Wytse]
Yeah, cool. Really nice question. I guess you're always trying to figure out what the hell the next step should be. And I think that never ends. But all of a sudden, when you look back, it's like, oh, we did some stuff. So I think, again, the Podium Astrix also was a really important factor for myself as a musician. So next to me being a volunteer, I also was able to play different times on the stage. We started out as a support act for bands we really liked. But slowly but surely, when we grew and we were still like teenagers, we were able to do our first headline shows. And after a couple of those, we were able to sell out those first headline shows. So being part of the scene from Astrix, also as a musician, was really important to find your own scene, I guess. And then the next step is like, okay, we now do fun stuff in our region. What's the next step? And I guess what I've found out last couple of years is that it's way more difficult to become part of the rat race of the music industry in the Netherlands, than it is to be able to go on adventures internationally and connect with other like similar underground scenes. So like those tours in different parts of Europe I did were because we build like a common understanding within different scenes. Also, again, with some sort of two way street going on. So we just got invited by a couple of independent small showcase festivals. And the promoters of those festivals helped us out with different shows in the vicinity, basically. For example, in the Balkans, it's way too expensive to fly over there or go by car for just one show. So then you start a conversation like, we really want to come, but we really need a couple of more shows to be able to make it possible. And because it's like a music community instead of a music industry, I guess, there's like way more possible. So we slept on couches of the promoters of the venues. We were not being paid at all, but we were able to just go there and meet people and play shows. So yeah, I guess for me, the next step to make it sustainable is to become part of different music communities. If you do that a couple of times internationally, then all of a sudden the story of your band also changes in the Netherlands. And then the part of the music industry, which before was almost impossible because they were just like, like what sells already, what makes money already. It's really hard to become part of that. But if you are able to say like, yeah, we tour abroad already and we have our own audience already, then all of a sudden it's a different story, I guess. But yeah, it's a hustle between being dependent on a part of the music industry and having the ambition to just tour around and meet people, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. But this is the interesting aspect. I'm reminded also, we talked to Peter last weekend and we had also Koen from Subroutine on and who spoke a lot about the Balkans and the all Eastern Europe, where he's organized a lot over the years. And I think what you say with tapping into some communities where there's also maybe a bit more passion than there is necessarily a big industry. It seems like that is actually, that is way easier because people, if you just fit, like you say, you need to find your scene. But if you just find the places, the venues, the communities that resonate with your music, they're way more willing to work with you because their motivation is not to earn money. Their motivation is to have a nice band and have a good time.

[Wytse]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's also more sustainable because you're able to come back because you just made some new friends. And the whole thing with the music industry is that every year there are some new artists who you can pick out and throw on a massive stage. But because that part of the music industry is linear, I guess, instead of circular, it's way less sustainable for you as an independent artist. For instance, in the Netherlands, there's this thing called the Pop Ronde. I don't know if this is a common...

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Of course not.

[Wytse]
Let me explain. It's a touring festival for upcoming talents. It's super cool. Within like 40 cities. So it's like the festival is taking place between September and November. And every year there's a group of 100 upcoming artists who are being picked to join the festival. And the selection committee is like a massive group of industry professionals. And this is a really important part of artists who are not able to play outside of their own province yet. Because of the Pop Ronde, it's a really nice starting point to be able just to play. And locations are between music venues, but also clothing stores, cafes, bookshops, all across the city. But then the thing is, because it's also a music industry thing, the music industry is scouting immediately. And because every year there are like 100 new artists participating, there is a fine line between joining the Pop Ronde and having fun and just making the meters and playing around. Or hoping to get picked by the music industry, basically. And this linear part of the music industry, that it's always first Pop Ronde, then Eurosonic Noorderslag, and then getting a management and a booking agency and doing a festival tour in the Netherlands. Everyone is hoping for this specific outcome, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, to take that trip. If you're a Dutch artist wanting to maximize your chances, of being chosen for the Pop Ronde, how does it work? And what could you do as an artist to try to appeal a bit more to be chosen? I know that's maybe a hard question, but you must have a few thoughts on it, at least.

[Wytse]
Yeah, I guess what's really important is understanding that everybody wants to get chosen. So don't, how do you say it? Try not to sound or become the image you think the industry wants you to become, I guess. Because every year there are 1,600 bands who want to participate. And if everybody's like, okay, what can I do? What can I do? Then I think that's a bit problematic. So I guess I'm also part of the music selection committee. What I love to see is basically bands who just don't give a fuck and do whatever. Like, okay, with or without the Pop Ronde, I'm having fun and I'm going my own path. And they're authentic in their music and everything. Yeah. And those artists are the ones I think like, oh yeah, this is something the Pop Ronde can use to have an interesting sound within the selection, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
How much is the music and how much is, how do you say, how you perceive the band's work ethic or what you will? How does those two things matter?

[Wytse]
Yeah. I think, you know, by applying for the Pop Ronde, you have this profile on the website basically with like, you can upload some new music and you can upload a bio and you can upload your plans and the proper picture. I think the image, like how you look on the profile, I guess, is maybe 60, 70% of how you look at an artist, I guess. Because it's your first meeting with them.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. Okay. And what you're also going through, do each of you that choose it have to go through all 1600?

[Wytse]
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's a pre-selection and they like somewhere in an often-saved date, like the first shift. And then as a part of the selection committee, you can like pick a certain amount of sub-genres and then like those sub-genres, you pick and choose your favourite artist basically. So I'm like, I guess 80 of them or something.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. And then, okay, but the image is then, is it just because there's a lot of, how do you say, how they perceive themselves also maybe to look in that or what do you mean?

[Wytse]
Well, I guess because it's this, the music industry is also using it as a tool to scout new artists. I guess the pitfall is that artists tend to, yeah, like I said before, try to figure out how the artist wants them to look basically. So because the profile is such an important factor, because like if you're listening to like 80 artists, you're listening quite fast, you know, a couple of, I guess, minutes per artist. So you, of course, you want the basics to be in order, of course.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I think I know what you mean, like I've also, because I've done also some selection stuff for spot festivals sometimes and you are 100% right, like, because you're listening, but already when you're listening and you're looking at the image, you're sort of, you get a feel for where to place it. It does actually, it's funny how that actually does matter, but it's how are they viewing themselves? This is the image they chose to represent them.

[Wytse]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Interesting. Okay, so a lot, so artists should definitely consider that now you're going to freak everyone out with the image. No one's going to, ah shit, can I choose this? I don't know, but what is Wytse going to think? Do we look stupid?

[Wytse]
Yeah, but then I would say like lean into the stupid, like go, that's what we need more.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Exactly, own it.

[Wytse]
Yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, that's nice. Okay, so that matters. Then how much can you, what can you, what do you feel like you can gouge, you can, like the work ethic from an artist? Is that relevant in this process you feel or?

[Wytse]
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess that's all, that is also linked to the, the, the stuff we spoke about before. What I noticed with a lot of artists we're working with, with Nord, is the sense that like people say, I'm not able to tour abroad because I don't have a booking agent. And I'm not able to, to play more often because bookers don't want me or whatever. And, and I don't know why, but, but this is like a thing of the, of the last couple of years that, that a lot of artists are, are stuck in like, like they, they, they've reached the endpoint of like talent development stuff. And then it's, and then it's up for you to, you know, do it yourself. And then everybody like wants or needs part of the industry, I guess. But, but, but nobody is, nobody's looking for you, you know, and that's the whole thing. So what I noticed is that a lot of artists are just waiting, I guess, like, yeah, I can make my next step as soon as a booking agent is, is reaching out to me. And I think, I think that's like, that's not how it works. Also, like I said before, I guess nobody is, nobody's waiting for you. You actually need to do everything yourself. And not all, like, not all parts of it are fun, but it's, it's a way also empowering, I guess, to understand the, the way the, the booking agent world works, basically. So just like, do it yourself, go and figure out how, how to do it in the Netherlands, but also in foreign, like, or Denmark, for in your instance, but also in like, foreign territories and markets, just yeah, go and figure out and, and like, bump into closed doors. And then like, analyze like, hey, why is this door closed? And what do I, what do I need to change in my like sound or approach or network to, to have these doors open up? And if you have a couple of years of experience booking your own acts in your own country or partly abroad, then all of a sudden possible conversation with a different booking agent also shifts because you're more like on the same level, like you, you understand the, the job of being a booking agent. So then it's a way more balanced collaboration, if you will. And I guess work ethic wise, I think at least like when I'm looking into artists from my region, like the punk scene is the way, like it's the most DIY scene I know. And those are the artists who also like, always be touring abroad, you know, because they build their own network and they just do it, you know? And they're, yeah, they go for it.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think what you're saying here is also, there's something that intersects, which is that as an artist, most are looking to also consider like, what is the, what is the sustainable path? Because they do also understand that the music industry will rip you apart if they get the opportunity to do so. And so if you, if you start relying on the industry very early in your career, you can be sure that you're most likely going to get the shittiest deal possible. Unless if you're able to actually bring a lot of value to the table yourself already by, like you say, knowledge or maybe already rising somewhat in the value, because it's obvious that if a booking agency is interested in an artist and that artist is already capable of booking 30 shows every year, then of course they can get a better deal from that agent.

[Wytse]
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. And when you know the metrics yourself, it's less of a disaster when part of the industry drops you because that's what happens, you know, every year there are new talents approaching and every year the industry is just looking for the most interesting, like the next big thing, you know. So so like, you know, stuff happens like that. So and then and then it's I guess you better know how to do it yourself because then then you then you can like remain in charge of your own process, I guess, instead of like hope for the best and let's let's hop on the bandwagon of the of the industry.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. Is there this actually I have a question I've been thinking about this and maybe I don't know if you how much you've encountered this with your work, both at Beatrix, but also with Nord, like, you know, there's so many opportunities, so many things you can do as an artist, but it seems like a lot of the younger generation now is also, to some extent, getting like decision fatigue, but also like the level of noise out there that you need to break through. It seems like most people are starting to feel like that, you know, it went from maybe five years ago, people were still optimistic, like, yeah, I can do all these things. And now that everybody's like, yeah, okay, but everyone can always do all these things. So I'm just drowning in a sea of everybody. Do you have like, have you what are you seeing when you talk to like younger artists with the work that you do?

[Wytse]
Yeah, really nice question. I think that's a really important like thing we need to take care of. I guess what I see in the Netherlands is that a lot of small independent music venues like ours actually tend to disappear because of rising costs.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, it's the same in Denmark also. Right.

[Wytse]
Yeah. And I think those spaces are really important. Like, as a young person, like for me, my whole like teenage years, really forming for myself as a person were in this music venue with like friends and new artists and like new sounds and like, it was so forming, but also really concrete and specific. And I guess in the shifting, like more online focused world, but also in a world where people tend to like go less to music venues and more to massive music festivals. Yeah, I really don't know the answer to that. But for me as a person, I can only say like, I'm super happy. Like there's a music venue in my hometown, which I can call my second home. And like those physical spaces can be a music venue, can be like a cultural center, can be a music school, like whatever. But that makes it like specific and tangible, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
But that makes total sense. I mean, I also I was part of starting like a music production community for like professionals doing, you know, recording, mixing and mastering all this stuff. And we became and we're in the second city in Denmark, so not the largest one. But all the producers that we know who's in Copenhagen have actually often been jealous of that because it was like a community and you could help each other. And everyone who was there kind of ended up doing well, you know. So I think it's the same thing like when you are physically somewhere and everyone has the same sort of path or intention of path. It's just you're like a hive mind, more than single individuals trying out your own road.

[Wytse]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. One hundred percent agree. Yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
And this is that's why I think it was I mean, I guess that's also what was really valuable about a place like Vera. Like we talked about with Peter that it's there's like a waiting list for people to get on the volunteer team. Like that's that's really cool.

[Wytse]
Yeah. Yeah. That's so popular.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. Let me see. Someone is asking something here. We have two questions. Liz is asking a question in the chat. He's asking how to become a volunteer at Beatrix and how much time do people normally stay volunteering?

[Wytse]
So with our venue, we chose not to be on social media at all. We have a newsletter, which is like the best newsletter I've ever created. Like like always, like you're like reading. How do you say it? Percentage is like terrible. But now all of a sudden, because it's the only way we communicate it like it's spiked up and it's. So, yeah, that's a that's a really like direct way of being in contact with our audience and what we see is the the borders between artists, crew and audience tend to like disappear a bit. So we have artists played in the in the venue, like fell in love with the place and also started volunteering. That also happened quite a lot with audience. Like we're also like feeling like, oh, whoa, this is like this actually feels like my second home. How can I join? And we also have like a group of graphic designers and we have an art division like Vera has it as well. We also have like a Riso printer and like different print techniques on our attic at the venue and a group of young local graphic designers design all the artwork and the posters. And I guess because it's like such a physical place where people meet and like design posters and organize shows. And like we because we do this every week, the group really feels like tightly knit together. And people who are also part like already part of the of the group also like bring other friends because, hey, I know a girl who is a graphic designer as well. And hey, I know a photographer. So that's like that's basically how people tend to join the movement. And how long people stay still is I'm not quite sure yet because we only had one season so far. So it's still a bit, you know, in the first time in the first period. Like we grew to like over 60 volunteers already. And then some just joined a couple of shows and some like the biggest group is still there, of course. But yeah, I'm not quite sure how to.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Do you have space for more at the moment or when are you at max volunteer capacity?

[Wytse]
Yeah, I don't know that yet because it's like our first season. We're like figuring out everything. So everything is about. Yeah, just figuring it out, basically. And that's the fun part. Like we're doing that together. So everybody is involved in like figuring out how to run a music venue again, basically.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
But that's why I mean, this is also the thing I think that people, everyone who works in music and especially artists, I think you need to like you need to remember that most of the reason you start doing any of this is to have fun. And then sometimes along the way, you know, you get lost and I need to also do social media really good. And I need to be my own manager and to do booking. And oh no, the labels will want this if I do it. So you get like sidetracked in the whole business side. And then I think that a lot of people stop because they lose. They forget why they were doing it in the first place. And like you say, you're just having fun. Like this is a great time. You just try and shit out.

[Wytse]
Yeah. And we're working like our socks off. Don't get me wrong. It's like yes, it's all flowers and dancing. It's like really tough sometimes, especially because it's like everything is voluntary based. So we're giving up one or two working days a week. But we're just like we're more than glad to do it because it's just so important for us.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. No, but that is super important. I think also sometimes when some people take the first steps, then others follow. But it can be hard to be the people who, you know, how do you say, drives the initial base. Yeah. A lot on your shoulders. Aaron here has a really cool question also. He's asking, how would you recommend finding other non-industry communities locally? For example, if anyone is listening in that's not based in the north of the Netherlands.

[Wytse]
Yeah, I think that's the whole crux of it. My first network I started that was like from the movement of Astrix. It was called the Creative Embassies and it was a collaboration between a local art scene in Rijeka in Croatia and Leeuwarden. And we met during an exchange project and we just got in. We had a conversation about the challenges of our local scenes and we never heard of each other's city before. But as the conversation grew, we started to recognize similarities in the challenges we face, like from our specific local scene, the challenges, for instance, regarding brain drain and like talents, leaving the city and trying your best to make it as colorful as possible in order to have young people stay a bit longer and to do more stuff. And all these challenges and the strategies our local scenes came up with to deal with those challenges really sounded familiar. And I guess that was a really special starting point for us to decide let's fucking exchange each other, artists, but also organizers. So basically this exchange was on a scene level, I guess, because we had similar values and similar challenges. And I think finding those similarities in the things you do and the things like why you do it, I think that's a really valuable starting point, because then it almost doesn't matter what you do, because the starting point is in order already. So yeah, I think that's how, for me, that was a really special starting point to start collaborating internationally. And yeah, how to find it? That's a tricky question. That's a tricky question indeed. But I think when you stop looking for the industry part of the whole music world and start looking for the local, physical community part, I think you'll find it almost automatically. I don't know. You need to go out there. And for me, being able to tour as a band across Europe, that's how I'm finding new scenes and meeting people. And because I'm meeting new people, I'm able to tour more often. So that's something which grows automatically. But I think the most important part is having this mindset shift and just stop looking for how to become part of the music industry and just, hey, what other scenes are going on? And let's go to Hamburg and just go to independent music venues. And when you look for the scene and why they do stuff in that city, you also find independent music scenes. And then I guess it's just a matter of time because before you meet people who resonate with you on a value level, I guess. I don't know.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, I found out about when it was still called Asterix, I found out about that because we played somewhere close. We played Welcome to the Village and then we came back later and played some local bar in the area. And then the promoter was like, hey, we have this place also. I think you'd like that. Let's go check it out. And then it's like, oh, yeah, OK. And then we met some other bands and it's just like, yeah, someone that is into the same sort of thing that you're into will most likely know more people in that region. So just probably just asking, yeah, people somewhat just remotely connected. If you're looking for a community, I guess that is the extent you know what you're looking for.

[Wytse]
Yeah. And I guess being able to offer something in return also helps out massively because then the conversation is also leveled because the conversation is about like, hey, what can we do for each other instead of, hey, music industry, I need you for my own project. And as soon as the conversation is equal, then I think really, really special things can happen.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
That's true. Yeah. Yeah. People need to remember that you give some, you take some.

[Wytse]
Yeah. Yeah. It goes both ways.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Let me just check here because I felt like I saw another question that I should ask you before we run out of time. Oh, yeah. Someone is saying we are a band from the Netherlands. With the work that you do with international projects, how can we take part in any of that?

[Wytse]
Are they from Friesland or the North by any chance?

[Rasmus Bredvig]
No, it doesn't say. It just says they're from the Netherlands.

[Wytse]
Okay. I guess that matters. Well, that matters for me because that's like, that's my region. So I'm like, I'm focused on helping out talents from my region. But that's like, that's a personal value for me.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. How can they join the projects?

[Wytse]
I guess okay. If they're from, I don't know, are they joining the Zoom already? Maybe they're able to specify themselves.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
You can see, I don't know. It doesn't say. They asked it anonymously.

[Wytse]
Okay. So, but I can answer. If they're from the North, they can look on the website of Noord, Noord, Noord, Noord.nl. And we work with Open Calls. And those Open Calls are about playing showcase festivals or residencies or many different projects. And what we always ask is what the specific plans of those artists are. For instance, let's say there is a showcase festival in Denmark, a spot festival. Then we are able to host one showcase during spot festival. Then we work with an Open Call and ask artists like, Hey, what are your plans for Scandinavia and Denmark? And why do you want to go to this festival? And I'm always looking for the right match, basically.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I saw you got a nice stage for your band this year. I was going through the program at F.U.D. It's a good location. Sometimes with this exchange they've given the bands, the former programmers were a little more weird with that. But you're also bringing a really cool band this year.

[Wytse]
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and the thing is, this band, they're really talented and they applied for a couple of Open Calls already in prior years. Also the year before at spot festival. And every time I was just, there was just like one other artist who had just a bit more specific plans. Not necessarily better, but just a bit more specific and outspoken ideas. But because they were super eager and reacting to Open Calls, asking feedback, developing their plans even more. And then all of a sudden, I don't even need to think about it anymore because they're so involved and eager.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Persistent also, yeah. That is also commendable, I think. I think some artists feel like, yeah, I know they think I'm an idiot if I just keep asking or I feel stupid, I look stupid. It's 100% of the time always the opposite way. You make a great look if you're just like, I'm not fucking going to give up. I'm going to try. Okay, I'll try this angle, try that angle. That is really such a positive look.

[Wytse]
Yeah, and just ask for feedback. That's completely okay. Because then it doesn't feel like a loss anymore. Like, oh shit, I lost this Open Call. It's like, okay, there was somebody else who had more specific plans. What can we do to develop our plans even more? If not for this Open Call, then just for ourselves to have some new skill sets to be able to develop your own plans.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, I think 100% true. I think it's cool that they also just kept going. I feel like also I've seen their name somewhere before, but when I was checking out, he has a great voice. I mean, they definitely have the quality.

[Wytse]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, I think so too.

[Wytse]
And then what we did was last week, I joined them in their rehearsal space and just started to fire questions like, hey, what are your plans for Scandinavia? And yeah, we want to tour. Okay, where do you want to tour? Festivals, which festivals? So it was really, they were a bit flabbergasted. But that was a really interesting starting point because then they needed to fixate on like, okay, but what do we want to do actually? And like a week later, they sent me this plan like, okay, for over three years, we want to do those festivals. Over two years, we want to do Germany as a second country. Next year, we first want to do Denmark. So they were able to like re-specify their ideas. And now they have like a super specific plan for the visit at Spot Festival.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Nice. Yeah. But this is, I think, this is also what I think is super valuable with a project like what you're running there with Nord, which is just being the sparring partner sometimes and the person like asking the right questions. Because I mean, that in itself is extremely valuable. If you're a band that I can do the work yourself, it might sometimes be a bit too overwhelming of being in charge of everything. So someone to just come in and say, okay, but have you thought about this? What about that? Do you have a plan for this? It can be all it takes.

[Wytse]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And the fun part is I'm able to do that. Of course, I'm like, I work in the music industry as well, but I'm also like a musician. So we also share the same stages together, you know, so those conversations with artists I'm working with feel also like really equal because I'm also figuring out how everything works.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
There's a different level of respect in that than you coming to be like the music business guy, you know, telling them how they should do it.

[Wytse]
Yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
The newer you understand them.

[Wytse]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it makes it just more fun also for like everyone involved, I guess. It's just to figure it out together, I guess.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah. Aaron is saying being annoying is the best way to create opportunities for yourself for sure.

[Wytse]
It's true. As long as you don't get bitter.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
That is true.

[Wytse]
No, generously annoying.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Persistently annoying. That is true.

[Wytse]
And not just annoying to like other like the same person time and time again, like annoying to multiple people, like you could be annoying to yourself, but not annoying to other people. Because of how much.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, the annoyance is mainly in yourself. I think also like Wytse said before, like, OK, ask for feedback. This is the same with. I mean, I've almost never met anyone in the industry that didn't want to give advice if someone asked them nicely. It's really like and you get a lot of like really great advice by just asking people the worst you can get. It's like, no, I don't really have time for that. But most people will gladly help you and give some.

[Wytse]
Yeah, I think that's worth asking.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
So persistently annoying with asking questions and for feedback. That's nice.

[Wytse]
You're just saying exactly.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
And should I just see? We have a last question. I haven't gone over here before we wrap up.

[Wytse]
I wanted to share the website of our music venue because you won't find it.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, let's do that.

[Wytse]
Beatrix, there we go.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
We'll have Ina share this with everybody. Yeah, I was also thinking like, I don't remember having like stumbled upon it. I saw that I was there for like some European delegation thing and I were at a prison, but we didn't have time to go into that. Maybe it was close to, but I think it was when you had just opened again or something.

[Wytse]
Okay, cool.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Because I just wanted to go in there, but I couldn't.

[Wytse]
Next time, just give a call.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Well, I only got to see the library. That was a little more ordinary. OK, I am. Do I have one more? Let's see here. Well, OK, yeah, we can do this one. It's the last one. If you're OK with going over a few minutes here, it's a...

[Wytse]
Sure, sure, sure.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Someone has a question. I'm an artist from Denmark. How do I increase my chances of playing at Beatrix?

[Wytse]
A nice question. We have like a general program email program at the Beatrix. And like be more than welcome to share your music. And like, yeah, because like we're we're programming one show a week, so we don't have like massive capacity to host like a lot of bands. But we are like super into touring international artists who like fit a specific niche. So when it fits the niche of the of the venue, then and yeah, then chances are we can have you over basically.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Nice. So checking out the program and making sure you sort of fit in with the styles is probably just a good way to go.

[Wytse]
Yeah, just just like indeed, like look at what we booked before, what's on the agenda and just. Feel free to build the music and email.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Very nice. All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the time.

[Wytse]
Maybe one one specific tip for this instance. I only like this was last week, actually. I gave my own pitch meal from my own band an upgrade, which could help massively. Like start with what was it? You can do mailer lights, but there's also Stripo. It's called Stripo. And you're able to like basically HTML your mail design. And like you can basically you can you can upgrade it in the form of like a newsletter. And you can add like video clips. You can add like a Spotify player. You can like add all different tools within the mail and you can like all design it in this program, which like really works well. And then you can export it in like a code and you can like put this code into Gmail or like whatever. Like a client you're working with, like meal clients. And this massively improves the readability of your pitch mail.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I just found a link here. I said this looks super. Yeah, cool.

[Wytse]
And they're like different programs who do this. Just Google and try out different tools, I guess. But like when I'm switching caps again and look like at my promoter point of view from the Beatrice, the mails who stick out are the ones from booking agents, almost like just booking agents who use this in like a newsletter kind of layout. And with these meals, you make it like really easy for a promoter to like skip through meals and like listen to new music and have like in one instance have overview of what the band is.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Yeah, no, that makes sense to make it visually. It stands out and it becomes easy where to click for what exactly.

[Wytse]
Yeah, yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
That was a really nice tip. Okay, super nice.

[Wytse]
Yeah.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
I'm going to have to look into this myself now. Thank you, Wytse. That's perfect. Well, I will see you at Spot Festival. You're going to be there all the days during spot this year?

[Wytse]
I won't be there myself. No, no.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
No?

[Wytse]
No, I'm so sorry. Yeah, no, I'm on the Dominican Republic that period.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Oh, shit. Okay.

[Wytse]
I know my girlfriend works as a doctor in the Caribbean now and I'm going to visit her.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Oh, my God. Okay. Well, that's okay. I cannot say that I'm not jealous. It's probably going to be amazing weather. But I'm definitely going to visit Irish somewhere this year. So we'll be seeing each other.

[Wytse]
That sounds like a plan.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
All right, man. Well, Wytse, see you. Thanks for coming. It was such a pleasure. And have a wonderful Sunday.

[Wytse]
Yeah, thanks. You too. Thanks for having me. It was super fun. Real nice.

[Rasmus Bredvig]
Okay. Bye-bye, everybody.