Session 10: Hanneke Dijkstra & Dirk Barth on what actually gets a booking email opened

Hanneke Dijkstra (Simplon, Groningen) and Dirk Barth (EKKO and Into the Great Wide Open festival, Utrecht) compare notes on booking: both get 30 to 50 relevant emails a week and both say a short, specific email that names an actual support slot beats a generic 'can we play your venue.' Good quality live footage matters as much as recorded music, partly for the booking decision and partly because it's what the venue will actually use to promote the show on Instagram. Both run informal community-based local nights (Simplon UP, EKKO's open-call programs) run largely by volunteers, and both have booked artists straight from those local nights onto their main stages. Their answer to 'when is an act ready' is that support slots are easy to earn quickly, but your own headline show is the real test, and they warn against treating a showcase festival slot (Noorderslag, Eurosonic) as the end goal rather than a step, because acts that peak at the showcase often fall flat right after.

Full transcript

Session 10 - Conversation with Hanneke & Dirk
(Speakers corrected. Embedded interjections split out to the right speaker. Words kept verbatim.)

Speakers:
- Eryn (host)
- Hanneke (guest, Simplon, Groningen)
- Dirk (guest, EKKO, Utrecht / Into the Great Wide Open)


[Eryn]
Okay, I think we're just going to go ahead and get started. Welcome everyone to of course our current session that we have with Hanneke Dijkstra from Simplon up in Groningen and Dirk Barth over at EKKO in Utrecht. We're really happy to have you guys here, thank you so much for joining. Again to anyone attending, you can just drop any questions that you have in the chat while we're speaking and we're happy to go ahead and address them as we move along. So why don't the both of you just start by telling everyone a little bit about yourselves and you know how you came to work in the position that you're currently working in and just how you got into working in the music industry in general. Hanneke, do you want to go first?

[Hanneke]
Sure, yeah I'm Hanneke, I am from Leeuwarden, I work in Groningen. I'm now head of program at Simplon. Before this I worked in Leeuwarden at Neushorn and before that I studied in Utrecht Arts and Economics where I specialized in music and events. So that's me.

[Dirk]
All right, well thanks for having us. My name is Dirk, I work at a venue called EKKO in Utrecht as well as a festival, arts and music festival called Into the Great Wide Open which is held on the island of Vlieland in the north of the Netherlands. I started out at EKKO as an assistant programmer, that's about seven or eight years ago now. That's a voluntary position that we have just to kind of learn the ropes of what we do and I did dabble in a bit of music journalism as well. So that was kind of my first way into the music industry as a whole.

[Eryn]
Really great, so we're happy to have you guys. Yeah, so just to start off, I think it would be really interesting to maybe learn a little bit about your processes when it comes to booking artists, like how you keep your eye out for certain artists to book for your venue, how much business is involved in the process, how much is based on curating surrounding the venue's mission, and all of those things. Hanneke, I'm really curious to know sort of like what your processes are currently at Simplon and how you kind of sort of align with your venue's mission.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, I think Simplon on itself focuses a lot on young people, so I think our core target group is around from 18 to 35, but of course it differs per production. So like within our plans and our vision, a lot of the programs should be based on young people and what they like. So the program is really broad, it varies from club nights to pop concerts, hip-hop, basically everything you can imagine. So for me that's sometimes like we don't really have like a very specific genre that we do, so I have to keep an eye out for basically everything, which sometimes can be hard. So I do have a lot of partners and organizers who work with me and curate, but usually my process for booking revolves around just finding new artists or booking agents coming to me, like yo, you want to have this in Simplon and then I'll see if it's possible, if it fits the venue, yeah like that. So it goes both ways I think. Sometimes I pursue something and sometimes they come to me. So yeah, I think it's not 50-50, I think most of the time agents approach me or bands approach me, I think that's like 60 percent, maybe 70, and then 30 percent, 40 percent of their program is just me pursuing the things that I find like fitting for Simplon.

[Eryn]
And Dirk?

[Dirk]
Yeah, I think we are fairly similar at Echo compared to Simplon. Utrecht is, like we're blessed with like four professional music venues, besides like the more informal circuit of cafes and bars that host live music as well. And I think like within those four venues it's most of the time quite clear who does what, and I think Echo is also mostly the venue aiming for a young audience and for us like the concert program and the club night program are like very important on the same level I would say. And as Hanneke said, like I think Echo and most like music venues in the Netherlands came from a tradition that's very much based in like punk and rock and other like guitar-based music genres. And over time I think we've seen that most of the venues have become a bit more broad in their scope of what is musically relevant to them and their audience. What is alternative now is very different than what was alternative when Echo first came to be like 40 years ago. So that's a challenge for us as well. Like you have to be not only know what's happening in rock and punk, but also know what's happening in hip hop and electronic music. So that's, I think that's something where indeed like local and national partners, whether that be like booking agents or just people who are very deep in a certain community that they come in and those are kind of your fellow taste buds around the scene. And I think we also always try to be like on the one hand you have like the underground where I think like most relevant musical developments kind of start before they become visible to a broader audience. And then on the other hand, you have what we call the upper ground where it's like the really professionalized industry and the bigger venues. And we try to be like a middle ground between those two and present the most exciting things that are happening in our local undergrounds on the same bill as internationally tastemaking acts. So we try to be a little bit of both, I would say.

[Eryn]
And Dirk, I'm curious from your perspective because you are also the one of the bookers for Into the Great Wide Open, right?

[Dirk]
Yep.

[Eryn]
And so how would your booking processes differ, for example, between Echo or Into the Great Wide Open, for example?

[Dirk]
Yeah, I think they're at the same time quite similar and pretty different. They're similar in the respect that sometimes you're dealing with a lot of the same people as in the same booking agents that you're mainly working with. I think that the musical profile of Echo and Into the Great Wide Open are overlapping as well. So there are times when you might see the same artist at both in the same year. But I think the process is quite different as well, because like booking at a venue, it's like an ongoing thing and you're trying to make a balance each month with a little bit of this and a little bit of that. But in the end, it's just a process that never really stops. And I think with the festival, it's really having the empty time schedule in front of you at the beginning of the year. And then it's just like a massive puzzle as well. And especially like when you get a little bit further into the process and you have most acts booked and then you can see, OK, we have this time spot open still in the schedule. And what do we feel is missing now? So it's a different type of puzzle, I would say.

[Eryn]
Yeah, makes total sense. And both of you had mentioned that you oftentimes have a lot of the times other agents approach you via email about an artist, but also artists themselves who approach you. So like when an artist reaches out to you, for example, what would make you actually like open the email and listen to their music and consider them at your venue?

[Hanneke]
Well, I get a lot of email, I think directors do. And to me, an email really stands out if it's not like, it even begins with like the subject. If you just put it like, yes, I want to play in Symphonic, I'm like, yeah, OK, fine. And sometimes bands do like a very creative tagline that makes me want to click it. So I usually ask them to do something like that so that it stands out or just send a follow up email, like not the day after, but maybe if you don't get a reply in like a week or something, sometimes it just there's so much email, it just will get covered up by the other emails. And that just is an ongoing process. I think what's important in when an artist emails me is that the email is not too long and that it kind of just for me, it goes straight to the point like, OK, this is who we are. Here are links to our music and this is what we want. Sometimes bands or acts, they just, you know, like, yeah, maybe we want to play at Symphonic if you see what's possible. But it's way easier for me if you ask for a support slot and you saw some bands in the program that you like and like, hey, be a bit more specific instead of just the open question, like, can we play at your venue? I think it's good for acts to look at the program, see what might fit their style and then ask a bit more specifically instead of asking the open questions. So, yeah, an email that's not too long and that is quite specific is usually what gets my attention.

[Dirk]
Yeah, same. Yeah, I don't have too much to add. I think that that's, yeah, size indeed. So like not your whole, not your whole life story, but some some context on where you are in your career. And indeed, just like some some links to upcoming music, like sometimes I get offered and those are like local artists, but sometimes international artists as well that say, OK, we have we have a new album coming up. They they don't send the link where I can like private link where I can listen to it. So I always I always try to ask for at least a little bit more details. Also, where did you play before in in the country or the region? How many tickets did you sell? Like, I think we we always have like a list of things in our head that that makes you decide whether to go for a booking or or don't go with a booking at that certain moment. And that's it's not a physical list that I have on my desk, but I think like most booking agents and programmers have it like in the back of their minds.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, I think I have that too, which is there are certain things that are like. You kind of know what you want within your program and you can kind of tick off the boxes when someone sends you an email.

[Eryn]
So, yeah, yeah. And I think I'm also going to take that opportunity to pivot a little bit into Liz's question in the chat, because Hanneke, you and I know each other from having, I guess, worked a little bit together at Simplon. I was a programmer for Simplon's local program UP that happens every Thursday night, which is an entirely voluntary based position. And I wanted to ask one, first and foremost, if you've ever seen any artists at UP that have that you have then booked for the main stage or if that has happened before with Simplon. And then we can maybe kind of go into talking about Simplon and Echo's volunteers programs and how the community overall benefits from being at those venues.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, I think like you said, we have our Thursday night, which is the UP night, basically, and it's all being done by volunteers. So voluntarily promoters, marketeers, like everything. Yeah, it does happen that I sometimes see a band at UP and sometimes they are brought along by a main stage act as a support. I usually look at the list of what UP books and sometimes there are just very interesting support bands as well. So that's quite a nice database that I don't have to do anything for because I don't book the actual UP. So that's quite nice. Yeah, but it does happen, like, not immediately, like, okay, you've played UP and now you're playing our main. But sometimes they come back to do like a release show or something that we do upstairs as well in our 150 cap room. And sometimes they can be booked as supports as well for bigger acts. So yeah, it does happen. Yeah.

[Eryn]
Yeah. And Dirk, I have a little bit of a similar question because I know quite a bit less about Echo, given that I've never lived in Utrecht. But I was curious to know if you guys also kind of like Vera Downstage or Simplon UP, if you guys have like a local, like a smaller program dedicated to your local artists in Utrecht.

[Dirk]
Yeah, not really in that sense that we have, like we have one main venue that's 300 cap. So that's a little bit bigger than what the Simplon UP and Vera Downstage program can offer. But we do work with volunteers quite a bit. Like in the beginning, Echo was like fully voluntary based. I think over the past decades, most top venues in the Netherlands have moved away from that a little bit. But we have some volunteers still at the bar, some of our technicians are volunteers, we have volunteers spreading posters throughout the city. Some people who do the concert photography are volunteers. And we try to be like, we try to make community based program as well. But it doesn't have like a fixed shape, like the Simplon UP shape, for instance. So it can be just like local bands doing a proposition to me for a program with themselves on the bill, joined with some other acts, or sometimes we have like an open call for like upcoming organizers to host a program at Echo, which can be a concert, but which can be a burlesque night as well, or can have many different shapes. So we do try to make like community based program with like volunteers, so to say, but it doesn't have like a fixed shape.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I completely understand that. But you guys do have like a community based or a community management team that like invites the Utrecht community into the venue and encourages sort of a fostering of community around the venue.

[Dirk]
Yeah, I think for us, we don't have like a dedicated community team, like our team is quite small as well for the amount of programs that we do. So I think for us, it's more, it's part of everyone's job description, I think. So for me, I try to invite the local community from a program side. My colleague who does the club nights, he's very busy as well with trying to find new and local scenes that we can foster. And then, of course, on the like, more than the personnel side of things, there's other people who do that from a very different perspective, but we're also very busy with creating opportunities for local people, like we have a DJ course as well. So I think it's not that there's like one or two people who are like tasked with, okay, it's your job to bring the community. And I think it's the basis of all of our jobs.

[Eryn]
Yeah. Yeah. And Hanneke, would you want to speak a little bit more on Simplon's volunteer program? Because I know we mentioned that UP is a voluntary program, but we didn't mention that.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, like for the rest of our team, we do have a core team of paid people, like me. But the rest of our venue runs on volunteers, basically. So voluntarily, bar personnel, technicians, indeed. So a lot of the people you see at the night itself, they are just, they are volunteers. And I do see that they invite a lot of people in as well. So I think that's kind of the community you have. Like, I think we have around 80 or 90 volunteers, and they themselves have their own community as well who come to Simplon. So I think that kind of fosters it too. They bring in new people, and sometimes they come to me with ideas. Like Dirk also said, like, sometimes just local people come to you like, yo, I've got this very great idea that I want to do. And then you just talk to them and see if you can make it happen. Um, so yeah, I think the most of our staff is just being there as a volunteer. So that's quite cool. And then Simplon Up, of course, is all voluntarily based.

[Eryn]
Yeah. And a lot of the volunteers, are they musicians themselves? Or how are they sort of involved in the music industry?

[Hanneke]
Oh, that's, that's really different. Like, at least at Simplon, it's really different. Some of them are musicians, but some of them just want to do something else outside of their normal job. Some of them are students, and they come to Groningen for the first time, and they want to meet new people. So that's why they sign up as a volunteer. Like, for example, the tech volunteers, they, most of the time, they do something in tech already, and they want to just do more and gain more experience. But we also have a few people who came in, and they were like, yeah, I want to learn how to do, like, tech for a show. And then they just tag along with, with some of our technicians. So it's also a great learning opportunity, I think. People are so different. They're not just all musicians. Sometimes they're just people who work in accounting and want to do something fun outside of their boring job.

[Eryn]
No, of course. No, not at all. I completely, I mean, for people, there's a reason why we all chose to work in this industry, and it's to enjoy the work that we do. And I'm also so thankful for Simplon's volunteers program, too, because I, for a very short amount of time, had been interested, or before then, I was very interested in learning, you know, booking and programming. And through Simplon's volunteer program, I got to do it for about six months. So that was, you know, an opportunity that I really cherish as well, having gotten to do. I want to pivot, I think, into some questions that we have from our forum that we submitted into the Discord before our session today. Let me see. Let me go through them and see which one I can ask. So going back to booking. Oh, and I also wanted to mention, I'm so sorry, in relation to volunteering at either Echo or Simplon, for the sake of this session and information for everyone, I'm sure you can find information on how to volunteer at either venue on Simplon or Echo's websites, right? Yes.

[Dirk]
I hope so, yeah.

[Eryn]
Okay, perfect. Beautiful. So my next question is, how important is live footage versus recorded music when deciding to book someone? And where do you usually discover new artists? So let's start with maybe the first half of that question. Like, are there often artists that you book at Simplon or Echo who don't have any studio recordings released, and you have to purely base your booking on that live show?

[Dirk]
Not too many, I would say, because having at least some singles or an EP out, it also speaks to kind of being ready to present something and ready to attract at least a little bit of an audience. I think sometimes it has probably happened with, for instance, a support act that they didn't have a single out or anything. And that can be the case as well. And that's fine, I think, if it's for a local band. But I would say for me, it's always best to have a combination available to make a judgment on from some recorded material. But I would also advise upcoming bands to invest in a good live registration as early as possible.

[Eryn]
And Hanneke?

[Hanneke]
Yeah, I agree with Dirk on this. I think for supports, yeah, I sometimes book someone who doesn't really have recorded material, but they do send some live footage. But I think a good quality live video, it says so much about where you're at. So I always encourage actor bands to send me at least live footage, like quality live footage, like not somewhere filmed with a phone in the back of a cafe. I think it just tells a lot about what you want to do and how you perform on stage and if it's an interesting enough performance to book. But I think it's only for supports, like for main act stuff, like main hall and upstairs for their own shows, you will need something more, I think.

[Dirk]
I think as well, the live registration or live video part, it's not only for us to be able to make a more informed call on a booking proposition, but it's also like a lot of the promotion that goes into a concert is now so video based. And I think sometimes you have video clips, music videos that you can use, but they don't often work as well when it's about live promotion. So I think having a very good looking live video of your act that the venue can use for running ads on Instagram, for instance, or just make making a good post. That's pretty essential as well.

[Eryn]
Yeah. And then from sort of the other side of the coin, how often do you guys end up booking artists for your venue or considering artists for your without having seen them live? I'm assuming often or I guess. Yeah, either live in person or without like a live recording. You know, how often might that happen?

[Dirk]
I think it happens more often than I than I would like. I think both try to see as many those or upcoming artists as we can visit showcase festivals, visit all the festivals. But there are so many artists, so many artists being represented and so many artists during that. Like each week, I'm surprised by like, I really try my hardest, I think, to be up to date with like music coming out. And each week there's new artists in my inbox that I've never heard of that hundreds of thousands of streams. So it happens a lot. And I think I always especially when I don't don't know an actor, I'm not familiar with them. I tried to search for some live footage. And sometimes it's just not there. You have to make like a little bit more of a guess.

[Hanneke]
I also try to ask like maybe friends who've seen people or other promoters, like sometimes I text Dirk about stuff. So I think like promoters among each other do that as well. And like my friends who I know, know a lot of music. So sometimes I ask them, but it's basically impossible to keep up to date with everything that's coming out and all the emails you get sent. It's just sometimes it's a bit too much. But I think every promoter tries like his or her hardest to be up to date. It's not impossible sometimes.

[Eryn]
I mean, a girl's got to sleep too, you know? Right.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, dude.

[Dirk]
I think also sometimes you want to be, I think we both want to be very much in the front of like booking the newest emerging acts. And then sometimes you just haven't had the chance to see them live, but you get the sense from seeing live videos, feeling that there's kind of a buzz around a certain act. You just have to be very early sometimes. Yeah. And make that guess before seeing the acts at Eurosonic, because you know that once they've played Eurosonic, for instance, all the booking agents and all the promoters will have seen them and then you're likely too late.

[Eryn]
Yeah.

[Hanneke]
And I think it's also the risk of booking an act without ever having seen them live, or maybe they don't have live footage. Sometimes you just feel like this is going to be very big, and sometimes you're right and sometimes you're not. So that's also the risk. But I like it when people make it a bit easier for us by investing in quality live footage or just sending us something that's representative for them.

[Eryn]
Yeah. Or when a group has a cult following that you know will just have a great show.

[Hanneke]
Exactly.

[Eryn]
That kind of brings me into another question that we had from our Google forum. That's sort of a culmination of what we've talked about maybe the last 15 or so minutes. And that would be, at what point is an artist like, quote unquote, ready to play at a venue like yours? Like in summation? That's such a hard question.

[Hanneke]
I know. Dirk, can you answer this, please?

[Dirk]
Yeah, I think there's different entry points as well. So there's the question of when is an act ready to play? For instance, a support show at ECHO or when is an act ready to play at a bill that may have three or four upcoming bands? I think in that sense, I'd say acts are ready quite quickly. I think for me, the level that I see in most Dutch upcoming acts is relatively high compared to, for instance, acts from other countries that I see at Eurosonic or The Great Escape. I think we do have upcoming acts that are pretty professional pretty quickly. So in that sense, I'm always quite ready for support acts and like multiple band nights to give chances rather early, I would say. And then I think for a lot of bands, the step from playing those kind of spots to doing your own headline shows, that's the hardest, I would say. And you have to have the sense that an act has at least some kind of following, at least locally. So I think we do quite some album release shows of acts from Utrecht that are not the biggest names nationally, but that I know have at least, which can also be like just friends and family who are very invested in coming to your show. So in that sense, an act can be ready quite quickly without having had to play like the biggest festival for years and years before playing a headline show with Echo.

[Eryn]
And Hanneke?

[Hanneke]
Yeah, I think that's a bit the same. I have two rooms in Simphon. I have a 150 cap and a 325. So in that, I sometimes see that they start out in the 150, sometimes during an up night, and then they maybe want to do a release show there. And then sometimes they really have potential, they grow to play the bigger room as well. So especially when I look at up, I think basically everything's possible there. You don't need like a massive following or you can just experiment there as well. So when I look at up, it's not a very big step to do it. But the steps bigger to play your own headline, whether that's in the 150 or the 325 cap, because they sell tickets. And that's sometimes like for a release show, that's maybe easier just to get like friends and family and to like motivate them to come. At one point, you want other people to come too, because you want to see that growth within your music and your act as well. So I think that's the biggest step. But especially when it comes to up or support slots, I think that's rather not easy to book, but I'm very open to it.

[Dirk]
I think as well, there's like, of course, we, it's our job to make kind of an estimation of where an act is, whether that be a local actor, a national or international act. But I think there is a responsibility for acts as well. And that's for booking agents, but it's also for local acts to ask yourself the question, are we ready for this? Like, when it's when it comes to doing your album release show for your first album as a local act, you still have to ask the question, Echo is like a 300 capacity venue, do we think that we're at that point? Or is it better for now to do something smaller, maybe and sell out? And because you don't get like the opportunities year in year out. So sometimes you might have like, one or two shots at doing your own headline show with Echo. So you want to do that at the right time for your act as well. And I think it's a challenge for acts and for some that comes more naturally than for others to like already think about the next step and what's after this show. So you want to do that Echo release show when you're also ready to make the step towards like a national headline tour, I would say. And you want to play Norderslag when you know that in the year after that you have music coming out, you have headline shows to play. And I think sometimes I get the sense that for some of the acts that headline show or that Norderslag performance or any other showcase performances is a little bit too much like the end goal.

[Hanneke]
Yeah.

[Dirk]
And then it can really fall flat after that, I think, which is a shame.

[Hanneke]
It's funny, because like this week, the Poprunde selection gets announced. And I know Dirk and I, we both select acts for that. And sometimes you read like their plans and their ambitions. Yeah. They're like, okay, so after Poprunde, we want to do, we want to release our album, or maybe during the Poprunde, and then we want to play Norderslag and then blank. Yeah. I think what Dirk says is very, very good point that it's good to think about where you're at in your career and what the next steps are. And maybe just plan ahead, like five to 10 steps, just for yourself to see what you want to achieve. Because like Eurosonic Norderslag, that's not the end goal for releasing, doing a release show at Echo or Simple. That should, I think, not should be the end goal. So yeah, I agree to that. But it's always funny, because I always see it in Poprunde applications too.

[Eryn]
And just for a bit of context, Poprunde is a traveling music festival that happens in the Netherlands for about two months out of, is it two or three months out of the year?

[Dirk]
Three months.

[Eryn]
Showcasing a lot of, you know, local artists and up and coming artists from around the country in certain various locations. I have another question. Yes, thank you, Ina. I have another question from the Google form that I'm then going to piggyback off with my own kind of follow up question. So the submitted question is, I'm playing electronic music, mostly ambient and experimental. I have never played live though. Where do I start? And this person lives in Germany. So if you guys have any recommendations in relation to Germany, or if you're only if, you know, your expertise is more within your local scene, that's also totally fine. I'm sure it's transferable. But then my sort of follow up question is just in general for any artists who is like, you know, writing and self producing in their bedroom, how might they get from this to, you know, feeling like, okay, I want to start like maybe showing my art and my music to people, how might they kind of get to the point where they can play at just your venue? Like you said, Eurosonic Norderstloch is like not the end goal, but like just to play at a, you know, a local venue, or an international venue of some kind. If you need me to repeat the first question, that's also fine. I kind of went on a ramble.

[Dirk]
Like, I think, for me, the advice that I always give to really beginning and upcoming artists is to start locally and see what's possible in your local scene and whether there's people who are making kind of similar music to you that you could like cooperate with and perhaps like put on a show together. And I'd say like, especially if you're like, making music that may be like a little bit different than your usual like four piece indie rock band who may be able to play at like a local bar or a cafe, like if you're making ambient music, I think you can look around like your local city and see what might be like other places that might be suitable for you to play. Maybe there's like a small church that will be up for hosting you or like, I think there's, you can always be like creative and set up things independently together. And then I think like transitioning from from being more of a bedroom musician, so to say, to playing your first show, I think. I think as I said before, like for me, I'm up for taking a risk or giving people opportunities quite quickly, as long as the music is interesting. I think it always starts with that question. I think I've reached out to like a shoegaze project before in the Netherlands that I just heard their single and I was like blown away by how good it sounded and turned out it was like, I think a 17 year old girl who just produced it all on her own in her bedroom. And she was like, I'd love to come and play, but I don't have a band. And then I think like six months later or so, we were in touch again and she had a band and we were able to book her for like a showcase night that we were doing. So I think it doesn't really have to be too much of an obstacle if you don't have that life experience. I think venues like Echo and SimpleNard are there to gain that first experience as well.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, I think that's also within the DNA of both our venues. And like Dirk said, I think it's a very good idea to team up with other people, you know, to organize something because it kind of takes the pressure of it. And besides that, you have to start somewhere if you want to do it. So I think especially venues like Echo and SimpleNard and also some smaller venues in the rest of the Netherlands. And I think it might be quite similar for different countries. There are always places that do live music and who are willing to give a chance to someone as long as you do reach out. Because like we also said, sometimes we can't keep track of everything. So sometimes you just have to be a bit bold and just ask, I think, even though it's scary. Because I can't imagine that it's quite scary to when you are used to just producing or making music in your bedroom, but do want to play live. That step can be very scary. But I think a lot of people, especially from what I know in the Netherlands, are super willing to help and to talk to you and to, I think, most of the promoters. I know they are so open to collaborating and to just helping you take steps into your career. So we're not these super scary gatekeepers who only book stuff that's very big.

[Dirk]
Some of us are.

[Hanneke]
Yeah, true. Some of us are. But like most of us, maybe not most of us, a lot of us are not, especially for the smaller venues, I think. Yeah, we're also here to help.

[Dirk]
I think that's why sometimes something might not be ready for Echo. But I think like most promoters know of other opportunities in their cities as well. So we have like smaller, very much DIY venues, like, for instance, a venue called Agwe here in Utrecht, which might be like a better entry point for a certain idea. So you can always ask a local promoter, like, hey, I have this idea and I'm not sure if it fits your particular venue at this point in time. But if it doesn't, do you have any other ideas or suggestions? And I think as well, if you're more in a specific kind of niche musically, and there might be not too many artists doing similar things close to you, it's a bit different for each country, I think. But the Netherlands, we are so small, of course, that it's very easy to have a sense of a national shoegaze scene as well. For instance, I've seen a lot of shoegaze nights happen throughout the country, where it's like the same cluster of like, four or five, six bands who like organize shows together. And then, for instance, you're playing at in one of their hometowns, and then the hometown act is headlining. And then a few weeks later, you might be playing with a similar kind of kind of lineup at another in another city with another act headlining and drawing in their local audience. So I think there's always like possibilities if you're not quite ready to get like past the, I need to be booked for a headline show hurdle.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I like what both you said, both of you said with the importance of needing to stress the proactivity that's needed from from the artist, because unfortunately, as much as it would be nice for this to happen all the time, it's very rare that you know, a booker will come along or an agent will come along and just hand you an opportunity. I mean, it happens sometimes.

[Hanneke]
But the same as Dirk and I, we didn't come to do what we do, like not being bold sometimes or not taking a risk or not asking for stuff. So that's the same, I think, for everyone who wants something or who dreams of something.

[Dirk]
I think the proactivity, it's sometimes the better option. I think sometimes you have the sense that, okay, I've booked this headline show with a booking agent, and then you announce it and nothing really happens. And the promotion opportunities for promoting a show that doesn't sell tickets like automatically are very limited, especially if you don't want to give all your money away to Metta. I think like having artists working together and proactively doing something for their scene, for their community, and also being able to promote it like directly from inside that community. It not only helps to be able to book the show, but also to make the show a success.

[Eryn]
Yeah, for sure. And so just to sort of summarize a little bit of what you guys had just mentioned. So to go from, let's say, bedroom writer and self-producer to wanting to start performing live, check out your local churches, your local bars. I know in Groningen, for example, there are a lot of bars that host a lot of jam sessions. And that's where a lot of my friends who are musicians got their first opportunities with.

[Hanneke]
I think that's quite the same in Utrecht too.

[Eryn]
Yeah. So it's always really important to check in with your community first, too, before having... It's great to have big ambitions for your art and for your performances, but it's always great to rely on your community first. I think that's always something that's very important to stress. I want to invite everyone who is listening to also submit any additional questions they might have in the chat. Before we wrap up for today, I'm going to give everyone a quick opportunity if there are any additional questions, and I'm going to try and think of another one because I've run out of questions. Yes. I want to express a thank you to both of you guys as well about this process, because it's really nice to get the opportunity to get a bit of an inside scoop from an artist's perspective on what inspires decisions from venues and from bookers to book certain artists, and also to just have this wide array of bookers that we've invited into these sessions. We had Bejzer from Vera on a few weeks ago as well to kind of see the different niches that exist within different venues and what would make a booker at a certain venue prioritize one artist over another venue and all of those things. This is a great question from Liz. Hanneke, you mentioned that you book a lot of local artists as opening acts at your venues. Does it happen often where you will book a separate support act to a headlining artist that is international or not based in the Netherlands?

[Hanneke]
Sometimes. The problem at hand right now is that a lot of acts also take a tour support with them. Dutch acts do it and also international acts do it, so sometimes there's simply not enough room to add another support. Our building is quite small. We only have a few backstages, so sometimes logistically it's difficult, and also not even speaking in terms of money, it can be very difficult to book two supports. But if it fits really well, then yes. I must say that I do prefer to book a local support act because they sometimes bring in more people. If you apply to be a support for a show and it fits so incredibly well, then who am I to say no? So yes, I do book international artists as supports, but usually headlining artists take a support with them on tour and I try to just give the local community a chance also. It's not impossible.

[Eryn]
No, of course. And Dirk?

[Dirk]
Yeah, I think for me as well, the preference is always to have a local support act, not only because they might bring more of a local audience, but also because what we talked about, that entry point for local artists is just very important to us as well. And I think sometimes we get approached by international artists who want to play a support slot for a certain show, but I always have to be honest as well that just financially, with the support fees that we are working with, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense for an international artist to travel to Utrecht without any label support, for instance, or support from a booking agency. I think you're just going to lose money. And I think also you have to think about does this support slot, especially when you're losing money, does it make sense for me in the long run? Is my plan to invest a lot of time and energy and money into this particular city because I want to be back here with my headline show in the near future? So it doesn't happen a lot, at least when we are booking the support slots ourselves.

[Eryn]
And that leads me to ask maybe one more and final question, given the fact that a lot of our following and members of TAB are based in Denmark and given the fact that Spot Festival is going on in Aarhus right now, I'm curious to know, because you guys have mentioned sort of keeping up with Eurosonic Nordschlag as well, if you ever keep your eye out on potential acts from other showcase festivals in other countries?

[Hanneke]
Yes, the answer is yes.

[Dirk]
Yeah, I think for sure, I think there's a few that stand out to me, like I'm going to the Great Escape in Brighton in a few weeks. Repel Bahn is always one that I keep an eye on.

[Eryn]
Yeah, so I think it's also important that way to like for any international artists who are curious to play in the Netherlands to kind of start within their local scene. And then it's always OK to kind of work their way up locally and within their and nationally and within their home countries, because there are a lot of European showcase festivals. And then that might bring the opportunity to then play internationally as well.

[Dirk]
And I think you can go first. I think, like, for instance, there's a lot of things, exciting things happening in the Danish scene right now. So I think there's there will even be opportunities for a few like Dutch, sorry, Danish acts to say, OK, we're going to see and if we can organise like a joint European tour, for instance, I think that there would be an opportunity there. I had a show yesterday with two Australian punk bands who reached out like independently from each other. And I think like both of them weren't quite ready for a headline show. But if you add them together, it's like one and one is free. And I think that there's an opportunity there as well. If you can say, OK, we're kind of the the representatives of our local Danish scene, for instance, and we are bringing that sound to to venues across Europe. And I think that there could be something there as well.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I really liked what you guys had said earlier, too, where like there are there aren't always bookers and programmers who are looking to sort of help artists in that way. But it's nice to see that there are and, you know, suggesting that certain artists from similar from the same country like tour together. And, you know, then it always becomes like a really beautiful project in and of itself. So that's really great to see. Hanneke, did you want to say anything about your sort of?

[Hanneke]
Yeah, like circling circling back to all the European showcase festivals, there are a lot. So there's probably one near you as well. But besides that, I know that a lot of promoters or booking agents, they visit all these festivals. So there are always people from other countries scouting eggs, looking at the lineup. So, yeah, I think from that perspective, there are always people who can help you take steps into your career. Also, when you are in this local scene, just by starting there, and maybe starting at a showcase festival near you instead of aiming for an international tour already.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I like that advice a lot. That's that's a great perspective to have. And I think on that note, we might just stop there because we're coming up on our time. So I just wanted to say thank you guys so much for for coming to answer these questions and also to share your experience and your processes. It's really valuable to a lot of our members who are looking to sort of grow their their audience and grow their music and careers. And so, yeah, thank you very much. Thank you.

[Dirk]
Pleasure. Thanks for tuning in.

[Eryn]
All right, then we will end there. And we have another session coming up next week, same time next Sunday with Janneke de Boer, who is the junior booker for Eurosonic. So maybe we'll have a little bit more of a great person. Yeah, we'll have a little bit more of a showcase festival perspective from from her, for sure. So, yeah, hope to see you guys all next week. Thanks.

[Dirk]
Thank you. Bye.